Question: How, exactly, does philosophy underpin science?

by bohm 62 Replies latest jw friends

  • bohm
    bohm

    I have seen the statement in the title thrown around a few times (BTS, I think looking at you), and i thought i would throw out the question and see what happened. I properly need to a few definitions: science will here be defined as both physics and mathematics which in turn is defined as:

    Physics: stuff that happends in a laboratorie and stuff written about what happened or is expected to happend in nature. May use mathematics.
    Mathematics: What mathematicians do. More specifically: Incomprehendable scriplings full of equations

    I might define philosophy in a parallel way to mathematics minus the equations ;-).

    Secondly, underpin. It is clear that especially in the early days of science and mathematics most scientists was really philosophers with a hobby. I dont think that pointing to an area where philosophers worked previously but has since been adopted and greatly expanded by science is really "underpinning" anything. Secondly, underpin implies (IMHO) some sence of importance and non-obviousness; it should bring something to the table.

    I wont really go out and claim the statement is not true (besides, never argue with a philosopher, he will allways win). I just cant think of anything, and I am interested in seing what kind of responses this will generate :-).

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    I'll have a bash. To me philosophy is "the thinking" that underpins science and mathematics. Whereas what often happens is that science and mathematics can be constrained by the state and its purposes. Philosophy can free science and mathematics to deal with open ended problems rather than with stuff committed to a particular purpose.

    but I'm not a philospher just sometimes an armchair one and tend to muddy the waters

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    or is this a guys only debating club? - if it is then please ignore my post - I have better things to do - bye

  • bohm
    bohm

    quietlyleaving: hey! so far its 50/50, with 66% of the comments made by women! :-).

    "Free science"... as i understand you philosophy "sniff out" ground where science should work, and then science begin to work at those problems sometimes later, perhaps getting results?

    If that is true (it certainly was a couple of centuries ago), it would in my opponion be different than underpinning. Do you have examples from modern science or mathematics of this?

  • BizzyBee
    BizzyBee

    I understand the relationship between philosophy and mathematics, logic and science. Still not clear on what is meant by 'underpinning.' Supporting?

  • Terry
    Terry

    Bohm, I hardly know where to begin.

    Would it kill you to do some reading?

    If you dismiss things based on what you obviously don't understand about them--how would you ever learn anything other than what you already think you know?

    I avoided philosophy until I was 40 years old. I too thought I had a grasp of what it was and rejected (my own false notion) it.

    One day I was at the Public library trying to kill a couple of hours until my kids got out of school.

    I was wandering up and down the aisles and scanning with my eyes various topics until I saw a book by a name I recognized: Mortimer J. Adler.

    He had been behind the Great Books of the Western World program with Encylopedia Britannica.

    The title of the book caught my attention: 10 Philisophical Mistakes.

    Philosophy and Mistakes fell right in with my prejudices. Obviously Adler, who must be smart because he came up with the Great Books program, was writing about mistakes about Philosophy--why wouldn't I want to read that? It would enforce ideas I already held!

    But--I was wrong.

    The next two hours had me riveted!

    I suddenly was thrown into a mode of thinking that was causing me to see what I'd never suspected before! Questions I held my entire life about very basic modes of thought were being answered so very simply!!

    I was hooked. I finished the book and put it back on the shelf and left to go pick up my kids.

    Afterward I went to the closest bookstore and purchased myself my very own copy of this same book, 10 Philisophical Mistakes by Mortimer J. Adler.

    It acutally changed my life!!

    I suddenly became aware of the false premises in my "method" of thinking and reasoning!

    I recognized why and how I had fallen for the Jehovah's Witness line of bull in the first place!

    I knew now what I needed to do to get rid of my false premises and faulty presuppositions that had me chained to religion (and, admittedly, the same JW beliefs I had possessed even since my disfellowshipping.)

    • 1. the mistake about consciousness
    • 2. the mistake about the human mind
    • 3. the failure to recognize that ideas are meanings
    • 4. the mistake of not acknowledging the contributions of philosophy are as important as those of the sciences.
    • 5. the mistake that makes good and evil subjective
    • 6. the mistake in the identification of happiness
    • 7. the misunderstanding between freedom of choice and determinism
    • 8. the denial of human nature
    • 9. failure to understand how the basic forms of human association are both natural and conventional
    • 10. the fallacy of reductionism

    I urge you to buy a copy of this book or take the time and trouble to visit your local libary and read it for yourself.

    Adler is a very plain writer. No jargon. Easy reading. Clear thinking. Your own intelligence will devour his explanations.

    You can stop right here. Or, you can read a little more about Adler from this point:

    .

    .

    Mortimer J. Adler
    An Overview of His Main Philosophical Insights
    Revised, April 2006



    Biographical Information

    Mortimer J. Adler was chairman of the Board of Editors of Encyclopedia Britannica, director for the Institute for Philosophical Research in Chicago, and a senior associate at the Aspen Institute for Humanistic Studies. He was a modern day philosopher and the author of more than 50 books. His method in several of these books is Socratic underpinning his familiarity with a wide range of works of ancient and contemporary philosophers. His philosophy has touched a broad spectrum of society including education.


    Knowledege And Philosophy

    To Adler knowledge is truth beyond the shadow of a doubt. It is "doxa " a well founded opinion, based upon evidence and reason that is testable, falsifiable and corrigible. Philosophy is like mathematics to Adler, in that it is non-investigative. In other words math can be developed without special equipment to conduct investigations. Philosophy is also like math because it deals with ideal objects, objects of thought. However; unlike math, philosophy is empirical. This is because philosophy is based on synthetic judgments in contrast to analytical judgments. This type of judgment is testable by "sense experiences ", because all human beings have "common experiences " that include the knowledge acquired without ever asking a single question. It is possible for anyone to verify or reject a synthetic judgment; therefore, it is possible for every man and woman to be a philosopher. Philosophy is like common sense it is acquired by intellectual insights and rational thought processes. "It cannot be too often repeated that philosophy is everbody's business. To be a human being is to be endowed with he proclivity to philosophize." (Six great Ideas, pg.3 )

    Adler believes new philosophy must be knowledge of the first order. This means knowledge about reality. Knowledge of the second order is knowledge about knowledge itself. However, Adler notes that philosophy is the only branch of knowledge that exists in a number of different dimensions. In fact he breaks philosophy up into four distinct dimensions. Metaphysics and moral philosophy would be examples of philosophy that is first order knowledge. The understanding of ideas and subjects would be examples of philosophy that is second order knowledge. Note that in these four dimensions Adler refers to philosophy as both knowledge and as understanding. We know metaphysics and moral philosophy. We only understand ideas and subjects.

    One way to test our "knowledge" of philosophy is by applying the tests of truth. These include: the pragmatic test which analyzes if a judgment which led to an action had a successful outcome and the test of generalizations which analyzes if perception is altered by one or more negative instances, but perhaps the most important test of truth to Adler is the test of coherence. This test shows whether or not a philosophy is consistent with reality, "only a coherent theory or doctrine can correspond with reality." (Four Dimensions, p. 32)

    The Six Great Ideas

    To Adler, philosophy is about ideas, especially "great ideas ". Adler believes that Plato was right in, "holding that ideas are objects that the human mind can think about." (Six Great Ideas, pg. 9) Adler narrowed the great ideas to six. He argues that a philosopher should begin with these six because of our common call to be good citizens and thoughtful human beings. He notes that five of the six ideas are prominent in the three documents that are the prime source of the American testament; the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Gettysburg Address. According to Adler three of these ideas we judge by truth, goodness and beauty and three of these ideas we live by and act on liberty, equality and justice.

    About truth, Adler says that it has both objective and subjective elements and that we should incorporate a mild form of skepticism that questions not its objective aspect but its subjective aspect.

    "The objective truth of a statement may be immutable, but not our subjective judgment about whether it is true. there are no degrees of objective truth. ...But when, subjectively, we judge a statement to be true or false, we may do so with more or less assurance, and accordingly, we may speak of it as being more or less true...." (Six great Ideas, pg.45)

    According to Adler the pursuit of truth in all branches of knowledge involves:

    1. The addition of new truths to our existing body of knowledge.

    2. The replacement of less accurate or comprehensive forms with better ones.

    3. The discover and rectification of errors.

    4. The discarding of generalizations that have been falsified by negative instances.

    "The sphere of truth, in short, is the sphere of those matters about which we think disagreement is profitable precisely because we think that these are matters about which it is possible to resolve differences." (Six Great Ideas, p. 58)

    According to Adler, the difference between truth and goodness is found in the relationships that they both pose.

    "When we talk about the pursuit of truth, we are regarding truth as an object of desire and, in doing so, we are in effect attributing goodness to truth."

    (Six Great Ideas, p. 67) According to Adler, we can determine what is good if we can discriminate between our natural and acquired desires, our wants and needs if you will. this distinction allows us to draw a line between real and apparent goods. Those things which fulfill are natural desires our good for us. Goodness allows us to express three degrees of evaluation, the positive, the comparative and the superlative.

    While Adler acknowledges the skepticism that would say that truth, goodness and beauty are all subjective. He effectively argues that there are elements of each which are objective. Beauty is intimately related to goodness because it too so based upon it relationship with us. The whole idea of beauty and how it is defined and perceived Adler further explores in Arts, the arts, and the Great Ideas.

    Adler notes that of the three great ideas we act upon justice is sovereign to liberty and equality, much as truth is sovereign to goodness and beauty. He also believes that all three ideas fall into the domain of goodness. for instance, to act rightly or justly is to do good. According to Adler all three are "real goods" that are needed in the pursuit of happiness. Of these three only justice is an unlimited good.

    Regarding freedom Adler says there are three forms. They are: 1. natural freedom, the freedom that we are born with, freedom of our wills, 2. liberty, the freedom associated with wisdom and moral virtue and 3. circumstantial freedom which is contingent upon conditions and can change frequently in the course of a lifetime.

    Regarding equality Adler says, "The equalities to which we are entitled, by virtue of being human, are circumstantial, no personal. They are equalities of condition-of status, treatment and opportunity." (Six Great Ideas, pg.165)

    Ten Philosophical Mistakes

    Finally, Adler in Ten Philosophical Mistakes discusses the errors that plague modern philosophy. He identifies:

    • 1. the mistake about consciousness
    • 2. the mistake about the human mind
    • 3. the failure to recognize that ideas are meanings
    • 4. the mistake of not acknowledging the contributions of philosophy are as important as those of the sciences.
    • 5. the mistake that makes good and evil subjective
    • 6. the mistake in the identification of happiness
    • 7. the misunderstanding between freedom of choice and determinism
    • 8. the denial of human nature
    • 9. failure to understand how the basic forms of human association are both natural and conventional
    • 10. the fallacy of reductionism

    To renew philosophy in this century we must remove many of the mistakes that have beomce all too common in modern philosophy. Many of these mistakes are small to Adler, theideas that fix them are simple. Many of these moder mistakes have roots that lie in antiquity. The two most significant philosophical mistakes though, are the first two.

    The first mistake is based upon Locke's view of consciousness, which said that all ideas are that which we apprehend when we are conscious of anything. In contrast, Adler says that a cognitive idea cannot be that which and that by which I apprehend something. That this view defies common sense. The second mistake, the mistaken view of the human mind is based upon Hobbes, Berkeley and Hume who believed that the mind was entirely a sensitive faculty, with no trace of intellectuality. Adler's counter argument is based upon Locke's argument which differentiated between perceptual and conceptual thought based upon man's reflective ability.

    LINKS TO WEBSITES DEDICATED TO THE WRITINGS AND WORK OF MORTIMER J. ADLER:

    Biography
    A brief biography of Adler

    Center
    for the Study of The Great Ideas

    Philosophical research center founded by Adler

    Bibliography
    Writings of Adler and other noted educators




  • notverylikely
    notverylikely

    Philosohpy teaches critical thinking skills for one....

  • Terry
    Terry

    What do we know and how do we know it?

    The basic question of philosophy.

    Secret insider information: the basic premise of mysticism.

    Science: the world exists as mensurable parts. Know the parts and you can predict results.

    Mystic: Reality is illusion; the real deal is what we make up and describe. (Visions, dreams, voices vs testable controlled experiments)

    Religion: We interpret our book correctly. Do as we say or God will kill you.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Bizzy - yes, something like support. You know, lie under, provide the foundation of, something like that.

    Terry:

    Bohm, I hardly know where to begin.

    Would it kill you to do some reading?

    If you dismiss things based on what you obviously don't understand about them--how would you ever learn anything other than what you already think you know?

    Well, thats clearly true, The first time i heard this idea thrown around was when i discussed with a drunk philosopher - he made the quite provocative claim that philosophy provided the foundation of mathematics, but he couldnt or wouldnt tell me how. Then, i heard it mentioned again the other day, and i thought it would be an interesting subject to bring up.

    I completely agree, i dont know much about philosophy, and thats why my oppinions are far from entrenched.

    As for the question - "does philosophy bring anythign to the table" - thats trivially true (i enjoyed reading Sartre tremendeously in highschool). but in the context of science and (especially!) mathematics, i dont know what that should be.

    Ill look into the book when i have a holiday!

    NVL: Yah, it was something like that i had in mind. But what exactly is critical thinking, which is not allready covered in mathematics?

  • quietlyleaving
    quietlyleaving

    hi bohm

    All three disciplines elucidate from and within nature.

    We sense that nature itself is logical. Both disciplines, science & mathematics in addition to quantifying elements from nature also apply logic to test propositions. Logic underpins philosophy which in turn underpins science and mathematics (and it goes the other way too). hows that

    critical thinking skills seed most disciplines but it is always good to get back to basics

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