Could you be DF'd for holding hands during prayer?

dissed

Yes you can, if....you are brazen about it.

As we were disciussing on another thread, inserting 'brazen' for 'loose conduct' in the new Elder handbook, can open a world of excuses to disfellowship someone.

Just read between the lines of this new, 'expanded explanation'.

"Elders, are you tired of ones defying your authority? Ignoring your counsel? Countering your illogical reasoning on beard growing, showing affection during prayers, etc....then embarrassing you infront of others? Well, fret no more! With this new and improved understanding of loose conduct, you don't have to put up with those bad attitudes! You can remove that 'problem child' by just sweeping them under the rug by a simple act of a judicial committee......"

Oooo, can you feel the power?!

"Brother Long-Timer, I couldn't help but notice during the prayer, you had your arm around your wife? You do know that's not allowed? You are mocking Jehovah's sacred arrangement and besides, its not loving of you to do this in front of young single ones. Flaunting your affection...you...you should know better!"

"But brother 'New Elder', we've been doing this for 56 years, since we were baptized. Its a special time for us. It reminds us that we are serving Jehovah together, committed whole heartedly to him as a couple."

"Brother Long-Timer, you are admitting you know its wrong, and yet, you are continueing to flagrantly disregard Jehovah's rules on prayer?!"

"Brother 'New Elder', I see it as a small thing. Besides, shouldn't everyone be showing respect for God's prayer arrangement, keeping their eyes closed. So who can see it any way?"

"You have got one bad attitude brother 'Long-Timer'! I'm sick and tired of your 'brazenly' questioning my authority and embarrassing me. I was assigned by the Elders to watch for ones breaking Jehovah's prayer commands and you are questioning me?! Do I have to get two more Elders? Do I have to form a Judicial Committee to keep you in line?! Is that what its going to take?"

You think that's far fetched? I've known several Elders that would love that type of power and control.

They need to revise the name of the new Elders handbook to, "How to control the flock of God"

cult classic

Yep. By adding "brazen" as the qualifier a whole new world of judging has just been opened.

sir82

I'm no defender of the WTS, but...

Don't you think this is just a weeee bit premature?

Like maybe, wait until the book is actually published, and you know what it contains, before criticizing its contents?

I understand your frustration, but this is just pure speculation.

dissed

@ Sir82 -

No

compound complex

Good morning, dissed:

This is a whole different slant. When still active I was invited to a non JW friend's home for dinner. Father called for prayer and all diners reached out to hold hands. I knew immediately that this was interfaith! Only JWs can pray and be heard by God.

I look back now with wonder ...

CoCo

blondie

It depends on whose hands you were holding, your spouse, no problem in my mind; someone else's spouse, not good; the whole row hold hands, not good.

Now if you did it and made a big verbal effort throughout the congregation that you and others had the right and the elders were interfering...probably would be a problem and the issue would really be the sidepoint.

I asked one married sister if she and hubby and stopped discreeting holding hands during the prayer; no change and hubby is an elder.

WTWizard

They can--all they need do is tell you to do something. It doesn't even need to be something in the littera-trash--anything will do. It can even be totally unreasonable. If you don't do it, they can call it "disrespect for authority", which could generate a "loose conduct" situation.

dissed

Blondie - Your brilliant legalistic mind as usual is coming through.

That's the point. Its no longer the act the Elders are judging or confirming, but the attitude. What is blazen? And if it is blazen in their 'eye', as WT Wizzard brought out, then a person could be DF'd for a very small thing indeed.

My, how the process of DF'ing has grown over the years.

Think about it. Someone's life, family, could be ruined by a group of Elders perception that you are 'blazen'. They can now read into your heart and make such a serious judgement deserving of death.

keyser soze

Only if you were unrepentant.

dissed

Just wanted to do a quick summation so I'm not misunderstood.

With the new 'brazen' understanding, a person can be DF'd for not just breaking a scriptural wrong (example; fornication) but a simple WT rule 'if' you have a bad attitude and refused to comply.

In the past, you could be admonished, lose priviledges like Pioneering, etc...but not removed form the congregation unless you promoted an open rebelion.

This step, that was satirically questioned, is made more simplar for them to act on. Its still would be in the eye of those particular Elders to decide how far they go with this. But could be a very useful tool if you think someone is apostate but are having problems proving it.

Could you be DF'd for holding hands during prayer?

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