ThirdWitness Wants To Destroy Captives of a Concept

by t33ap80c 10 Replies latest jw friends

  • t33ap80c

    I have had numerous ‘conversations’ with ThirdWitness. It seems that one of his goals in life is to protect the world from me and my "Captives of a Concept."

    Someone by the name "SettingTheRecordStraight" has posted many of ThirdWitness’ comments on several webpages, including:

    So far STRS has allowed me to comment on many of ThirdWitness’ statements. He and ThirdWitness have not attempted to respond yet. Here is one of my responses to what ThirdWitness has said about me and the book:

    I said, "STRS – You (or more likely ThirdWitness) said, 'Cameron argues since the Society believed 1874 marked Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore, in 1914 they could not have been on the watch for Jesus and his Kingdom. Is this true?'"

    "No. This is not true! Once again you and ThirdWitness are misrepresenting what I am saying in the book.

    "What I do argue is that since the Society believed 1874 marked THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence, therefore in 1914 they could not have been on the watch FOR THE BEGINNING of Jesus’ invisible presence.

    "I assume that you, ThirdWitness and even someone from the planet Mars would agree with my actual argument.

    "But for whatever reason you and ThirdWitness misrepresent my actual argument and then say, "Either (1) Cameron purposely lied about Russell and Rutherford not knowing the 1914 date, or (2) Cameron is ignorant of the very facts he has claimed to have studied in depth. Either way it doesn’t look good for him."

    "But when it realized that you (or more likely ThirdWitness) have changed my argument to make it appear that I lied and/or am ignorant of ‘the facts’ then who does it not look good for?"

    Don Cameron

    Note to JWD: ThirdWitness has done this several times. So far when I have tried to point out to him that what he is doing is not ethical he simipliy denies doing it and then keeps right on doing it.

  • agonus

    Has 3rdwitness seen the new "Faith in Action DVD"?

    The following is a direct quote from the video: "The Bible Students were coming to the realization that Christ's presence began in 1914."

    Ask him directly: Is this statement true or false? If it is false, WHY?

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff

    Well, there will always be Watchtower apologists unfortunately. And I suppose this is really a good thing - as it makes it possible for third party onlookers, including Jw's, to see just who represents honest research, and who just wishes to defend his position with or without facts.

    Captives of a Concept was not the lynch-pin for me in leaving. I had already left. But I found the basic arguments to be sound. I appreciate Don, that you made the large effort to write it - and I am sure that many have deeply benefited from your book. Thank you. I still have my copy on my bookshelf, along with several others that all helped me kick the sandy foundation of the Watchtower away from me forever.

    Pay no attention to those who insist there is no man behind the curtain.


  • wobble

    This kind of scurrilous smear campaign based on lies, i.e changing what you actually wrote, and then proving their version of what you said false, is all the Apologists have.

    They have no solid evidence in their favour.

    As AK-Jeff said any honest person, JW or not, seeing such disgusting dishonest methods, must ask themselves "Why do they have to stoop to this if they are defending the "Truth" ?"

    It does need combating though, as active JW's are likely to read such falsehoods and therefore reject the book, and similar books.

  • t33ap80c


    ThirdWitness agrees that Russell mistakenly taught that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1874 and that therefore he never watched for Jesus’ parousia to begin in 1914.

    But over and over again he makes the following point: "Cameron wants his reader to believe that since they thought Jesus' Parousia began in 1874 they could not have been watching for Jesus in 1914."

    What he does is to switch subjects. I’m talking about Jesus’ return to begin parousia in 1874 but he is talking about Jesus’ return in his Kingdom in 1914.

    While it is true that Russell was watching for Jesus to come in his Kingdom and do all kinds of things in 1914, he was not watching his parousia to begin in 1914.

    The fact that Jesus didn’t do any of the things that Russell had been watching for him to do doesn’t concern ThirdWitness. His only concern is that Russell had been "watching for Jesus in 1914."

    In the book I make it more than clear that whenever I refer to Jesus’ "return" I am ALWAYS referring to his return to begin his parousia either in 1874 or 1914. And so when I have said that Russell never realized that Jesus had returned in 1914, that is the return I am referring to. I tried to explain this to ThirdWitness several times.

    But again, he always switches that return I am referring to to a different return and then accuses me of intentionally trying to deceive and mislead.

    Does this mean that ThirdWitness is the one who is intentionally trying to deceive and mislead? I am willing to give him the benefit of doubt. It may well be that he is so intent on discrediting me and my book that he honestly doesn’t realize that he has to ‘cheat’ to do it. Even when it is pointed out that what he is doing is ‘illegal’ he still is unable to see it.

    The apostle Paul mentioned how God can let "an operation of error" go to those who have not accepted "the love of the truth" so that "they may get to believing lie." - 2 Thessalonians 2:10,11

    Of course I have no way of knowing if this is how God is dealing with ThirdWitness. But there does seem to be a whole lot of "operation of error" going on in his thinking. Something is allowing it to happen.

    Don Cameron

  • The_Present_Truth

    ThirdWitness needs to realize that the most damning words ever written about the WatchTower society can be found in their own publications when you lay out their printed falsehoods, claims, predictions, and contradictions in chonological order - which is what you did Don, just lay them out in chronological order, clearly, in one place, nice and neat, easy to understand, for all to see. The Witnesses aren't used to seeing such clear chronology, especially as it relates to their own history.

    I for one loved your book, have recommended it and intend to present each of my immediate family members with a copy of it. I had left many years before reading it but wish I had read it much sooner since it affirmed my suspicions and quieted that nagging voice progammed into the back of my mind by the WTBTS and my brainwashed parents.

    Thank you for all your hard work Don.

  • yourmomma

    I can only speak for myself and some of my friends and family, but when I saw and they saw people like thirdwitness and his dishonest debate tactics, as well as how he mocked victims of child molestation, it was one of the main nails in the coffin that confirmed that there is no way possible that God has anything to do with these people.

    By doing what he is doing, thirdwitness is making the WTS look worse than it already does. He is causing more people to leave, so I think its great when the JW apologists come on this site and make their own blogs because it helps people who might be in between to wake up and realize that the JW's are liars.

  • Bonnie_Clyde

    I enjoyed your book too, Don. You wouldn't remember me, but 10+(?) years ago you responded to an email I sent before I was completely out of the organization. I remember you were in the process of writing your book.

  • cantleave

    Don, "Captives" is one of the books I always recommend to doubting witnesses. Everything you state can be proved by the WTBTS's own literature.

  • Mall Cop
    Mall Cop

    Don he will only bring attention to your very insightful book. Then those who do a study of watchtower history can only come to the conclusion that jw's are all captives of a concept, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

    ThirdWitness can only bring more attention to your book and thereby others will see the truth about this captivity.

    Your book will continue on long after ThirdWitness has moved on.

    Thanks for this one.

    Blueblades/Mall Cop

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