Pagan Origins

by brotherdan 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  brotherdan

  So all of us that grew up as Witnesses never did certain things because of them having pagan origins. Why don't we celebrate Christmas? Pagan origins. Why don't we celebrate Mothers Day, for crying out loud? Pagan origins.

  I'd like to ask: Is it possible for us to completely avoid everything that is connected with paganism? Where does the connection become a sin? Where does the connection become a "conscience matter"?

  This question is mainly to other Christians. And I'm serious about it. So I know all the jokes some of you guys can come up with about it. But I want to get an honest answer from some of you guys.

  Much of the culture has been influenced in one way or another by pagan influences. Days, weeks and months of the year have pagan connection. Money has pagan symbols on it. Shaking hands and wedding rings have pagan connections.

  But where do these things represent a danger to a Christian?

  We all know that the WT condemns some things (I.E Birthdays) but not others (I.E Anniversaries, Weddings, etc...) Now that you are out of the mind control, where do you draw the line?
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  leavingwt

  The reasoning that WT uses to "justify" celebrating Wedding Anniversaries is sufficient for a Christian to justify Birthdays and Christmas.
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  JWoods

  It would be wrong to drive a Mercury.
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  brotherdan

  That's just my point. Do we even need to worry about the origins when they are thousands of years old?

  When I was a pioneer and asked about Christmas I would use the illustration of the Israelites worshipping the calf. They "called" it worship to Jehovah. But just because they called it something different didn't mean that it changed what it really was, or how it originated. It was pagan worship from the leftovers of the Egyptians.

  But here's the deal. What about the origins of the Watchtower? Don't they have some pagan ties and origins? Pyramidology? Astrology? Getting knowledge from the dead (anointed ones)?

  So if we are not to consider Watchtower origins that no longer have the same meanings, why do we need to look at other origins that have no pagan meanings today (i.e. Christmas)

  I'd like to get a JW perspective too (Titus?)
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  leavingwt

  why do we need to look at other origins

  The Bible is silent on Christmas and Birthdays. You get to decide.

  If God is playing a game of "Gotcha", and you lose out on everlasting life because of Santa Claus, he's really not a very nice person, is he? He certainly could have just explained everything in great detail. He had 66 books to work with. He could even give you a personal revelation.
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  Hadit

  Basically the WT has taken away people's FREEDOM to decide how to live and what to think. God created us as sovereign beings - not ones to be led by anything but our conscience. Romans 14 is a good chapter to read. We are not to judge as to what days people celebrate or don't or what others eat, etc.

  So you draw the line where others try to influence your right to do what YOU believe it right for yourself and for your family.
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  JWoods

  What I never understood was how "the worldly thanksgiving holiday" had any pagan origins - but it is still off limits by the WTBTS rules.
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  leavingwt

  brotherdan: As you continue in your studies, you're going to discover that only CULTS and FUNDAMENTALISTS profess to have "Certainty" on any number of topics.

  I highly recommend this book:

  The Myth of Certaintyby Daniel M. Taylor

  Do you resent the smugness of closed-minded skepticism on the one hand but feel equally uncomfortable with the smugness of closed-minded Christianity on the other?

  If so, then The Myth of Certainty is for you. Daniel Taylor suggests a path to committed faith that is both consistent with the tradition of Christian orthodoxy and sensitive to the pluralism, complexity and relativism of our age.

  The case for the questioning Christian is made with both incisive analysis and lively storytelling. Brief fictional interludes provide an alternate way of exploring topics at hand and vividly depict the real-life dilemmas reflective Christians often face.

  Taylor affirms a call to throw off the paralysis of uncertainty and to risk commitment to God without forfeiting the God-given gift of an inquiring mind. Throughout he demonstrates clearly how much the world and the church need question askers.

  http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Certainty-Reflective-Christian-Commitment/dp/0830822372
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  ziddina

  Urk!!! Brother Dan, I hate to burst your bubble, but...

  The bible ITSELF contains mythology plagiarized and co-opted from older PolyTheist religions...

  That 'staff' with the bronze serpent on it??

  "PAGAN" - I prefer using PolyTheist, but since "pagan" is a quick identifier, and since the definition of "pagan" - backward, ill-informed country dweller - seems to have applied more frequently to the Hebrews/Jews than their often-better-educated conquerers, I'll use the term "Pagan" for this post.

  The "twelve tribes of Israel" - wherein 10 of the 12 tribes mysteriously disappeared, later on?? PAGAN - get a copy of the 12 CHINESE zodiac signs and compare them to the 'totem animals' of the 12 tribes - I believe there's a match for 8 to 10 of the 12 animals used by the Israelites as 'symbols' of their particular tribes...

  That sacred number "SEVEN"??? PAGAN PAGAN PAGAN. Used in Goddess worship LONG before the Israelites EVER existed as a tribal group, and LONG LONG before the bible existed...

  Let's see... What else....??? Ah, yes...

  "Jesus" supposedly being in the 'grave' for "three days and three nights". The Sumerian Goddess Inanna was in the Underworld for THREE DAYS and THREE NIGHTS, at least TWO THOUSAND years before the bible EVER EXISTED, and at least THREE THOUSAND years before "Jesus"...

  Much of the belief system that was incorporated into "Christianity", actually was inspired by and derived from the PolyTheistic Grecian belief system called the "Elysian Mysteries"... The Greek God of Wine, Dionysus, was a predecessor of "Jesus" who set the pattern for many significant incidents in "Jesus' " life - the "bread and wine" of the last supper has GREAT PAGAN SIGNIFICANCE to the worship of Dionysus, as does the act of dying as a "scapegoat king" to assist humanity...

  That's just the tip of the iceberg....

  Eventually, I'm going to start a thread that goes thru the bible books [this will probably be a few YEARS from now, by the way...] and 'excavates' ALL the "Pagan" beliefs that were incorporated INTO THE BIBLE - and hopefully shows what the ORIGINAL BELIEF SYSTEM was, that the Israelites plagiarized them from...

  So, for the Jehovah's Witnesses - for any "Christian" group, for that matter - to yowl about "pagan" celebrations, simply demonstrates their IGNORANCE to those of us who have learned something of the PAGAN ORIGINS OF THE BIBLE ITSELF!! To be blindly unaware of the PAGAN origins of most of the MAJOR mythology of the bible, but to condemn certain holidays, shows a mind-boggling lack of awareness and inability to realize how irrelevant the "pagan" origins of such holidays are!!!!

  Zid
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  brotherdan

  Zid, what if the worlds paganism came from a distorted view of true worship? What if these pagan ideas had good origins? The Bible talks about Babylon (more specifically the area around the tower of Babel) as being a source of false worship. It would be easy to attribute Christian ideas to paganism because of it's own separate history.

  For example we know that the Roman gods had their origins from the Greek gods. The Greeks got many of their ideas from ancient Egypt and Babylon. Why could not all of these have been distortions of the truth?