Being "drawn" by God (John 6:44)

by pirata 12 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • pirata

    "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him" (John 6:44, NIV)

    Random musings and things that have made me think about this scripture over the years:

    One "need-greater" elder told me that in the congregation he was serving in, he had a tough time encouraging the publishers to do evening service. The publishers reasoned that if God draws people, then God will arrange for the householder to be home (ie. get sick and take a day off work) when the witnesses are doing their witness activity.

    The WTS often uses this scripture to encourage JWs ie. "The fact that you are among God's people is evidence that he has drawn you by means of his holy spirit."

    But what about born-in JWs? Are they drawn? While growing up, it dawned on me that if I hadn't grown up a JW, I probably wouldn't have become one. That made me think that I wasn't really drawn, but was there because of the random chance of having been born into it.

    If God wants all men to be saved, why are so few drawn? Are people who are not drawn in truly not "honest hearted"? "Honest hearted" seems to carry the idea that you accept what someone else is telling about the Bible without being critical. This seems more like someone who is "vulnerable" or "gullible" or "simple".

    I've heard explanations that God "draws" people through the Gospel, and those who listen are considered drawn by him, but this seems to contradict that WTS' application that suggests that God personally picks us to be part of his people.

    What are your thoughts on this scripture?

  • PSacramento

    The greek word is Helko which means to draw or drag off and can be a metaphore for being lead or impel by a inward power.

    There is a reason that even the earliest man "looked to the heavens", and that was God drawing them to discover God and their own potential.

  • snowbird

    "Led or impelled by an inward power" - Holy Spirit!



  • PSacramento

    I think that the passage after clears up a bit of what Jesus was saying:

    It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' [fn] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

    So, basically, man can't teach another man to find or beleive in Jesus, only God ( via the HS) can do that, so when a person comes to this conclusion ( that Jesus is the bread of life, our Lord and Savour) it is NOT by man or by man's teachinsg, but by God's power.

    Paul echos this also:

    1Corinthians 12:3

    Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

  • Perry
    If God wants all men to be saved, why are so few drawn? Are people who are not drawn in truly not "honest hearted"?

    Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

    Many are drawn. But we must also accept the terms of the New Covenant (New Contract). No contract, no deal. There are specific terms on both sides of the agreement spelled out in the NT.

    "Honest hearted" seems to carry the idea that you accept what someone else is telling about the Bible without being critical.

    This seems more like someone who is "vulnerable" or "gullible" or "simple".

    The term honest hearted in not in scripture (KJB). Its one of those guilt tripping terms used to make people swallow the Covenant rejection that the WT peddles. The heart is NOT to be trusted at all.

    Great questions.

  • StAnn

    Pirata, we all have a guardian angel whose job is to lead us to God. We can choose to follow our angel's leadings or not follow them, as we have free will. Here is an article from the Catholic Encyclopedia about Guardian Angels.

    Note the function of Guardian Angels: This is the function of the guardian angels; they are to lead us, if we wish it, to the Kingdom of Heaven.

    "That every individual soul has a guardian angel has never been defined by the Church, and is, consequently, not an article of faith; but it is the "mind of the Church", as St. Jerome expressed it: "how great the dignity of the soul, since each one has from his birth an angelcommissioned to guard it." (Comm. in Matt., xviii, lib. II).

    This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Eusebius, "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

    In the Bible this doctrine is clearly discernible and its development is well marked. In Genesis 28-29, angels not only act as the executors of God's wrath against the cities of the plain, but they deliver Lot from danger; in Exodus 12-13, an angel is the appointed leader of the host of Israel, and in 32:34, God says to Moses: "my angel shall go before thee." At a much later period we have the story of Tobias, which might serve for a commentary on the words of Psalm 90:11: "For he hath given his angels charge over thee; to keep thee in all thy ways." (Cf. Psalm 33:8 and 34:5) Lastly, in Daniel 10 angels are entrusted with the care of particular districts; one is called "prince of thekingdom of the Persians", and Michael is termed "one of the chief princes"; cf. Deuteronomy 32:8 (Septuagint); and Ecclesiasticus 17:17(Septuagint).

    This sums up the Old Testament doctrine on the point; it is clear that the Old Testament conceived of God's angels as His ministers who carried out his behests, and who were at times given special commissions, regarding men and mundane affairs. There is no special teaching; the doctrine is rather taken for granted than expressly laid down; cf. 2 Maccabees 3:25; 10:29; 11:6; 15:23.

    But in the New Testament the doctrine is stated with greater precision. Angels are everywhere the intermediaries between God and man; and Christ set a seal upon the Old Testament teaching: "See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that theirangels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 18:10). A twofold aspect of the doctrine is here put before us: even little children have guardian angels, and these same angels lose not the vision of God by the fact that they have a mission to fulfil on earth.

    Without dwelling on the various passages in the New Testament where the doctrine of guardian angels is suggested, it may suffice to mention the angel who succoured Christ in the garden, and the angel who delivered St. Peter from prison. Hebrews 1:14 puts the doctrinein its clearest light: "Are they not all ministering spirits, sent to minister for them, who shall receive the inheritance of salvation?" This is the function of the guardian angels; they are to lead us, if we wish it, to the Kingdom of Heaven.

    St. Thomas teaches us (Summa Theologica I:113:4) that only the lowest orders of angels are sent to men, and consequently that they alone are our guardians, though Scotus and Durandus would rather say that any of the members of the angelic host may be sent to execute the Divine commands. Not only the baptized, but every soul that cometh into the world receives a guardian spirit; St. Basil, however (Homily on Psalm 43), and possibly St. Chrysostom (Homily 3 on Colossians) would hold that only Christians were so privileged. Our guardian angels can act upon our senses (I:111:4) and upon our imaginations (I:111:3) — not, however, upon our wills, except "per modum suadentis", viz. by working on our intellect, and thus upon our will, through the senses and the imagination. (I:106:2; andI:111:2). Finally, they are not separated from us after death, but remain with us in heaven, not, however, to help us attain salvation, but "ad aliquam illustrationem" (I:108:7, ad 3am)."


  • Perry

    Angels are everywhere the intermediaries between God and man

    Not according to scripture: "There is one mediator between God and Man, the man Christ Jesus"

  • sooner7nc
  • sooner7nc

    Damn, talk about a thread killer.

  • Lozhasleft

    Pirata ...lets not start from the JW perspective so's we have a hope....?

    Loz x

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