Need help fact checking public talk at the DC

by just n from bethel 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    Hi all. I have taken the time to transcribe part of the public talk given at the DC. It was interesting because it basically said the Witnesses used the bible to fortell the fall of the Axis Powers in WWII. Now when I first heard the speaker say it - my ears perked up. I was like that's such a specific claim for a public talk - anybody in the public would certainly fact check what he said and if proved wrong or twisted it would really make them look bad.

    After the talk I asked some others if they caught that. I basically said, "you guys heard him say that right? - that we foretold that the Axis Powers would lose WWII?" They said at first, 'no that's not what he said - he just said the witnesses would come out victorious.' I was like 'no - he said that we (JWs) said the Nazis would lose and the Allied forces would win - and that we said that before it happened.' -

    Later I asked someone I knew who was working on the program if I heard right. He said yes -absolutely - the talk said that and so did we. I could've talked to the speaker but this was someone just as knowlegeable about the talk outline. Now when I pressed him if we actually proclaimed the Axis Powers would fall in WWII he said we probably didn't use the term 'Axis Powers' but likely pointed to the King of the North (which was wierd because I always thought the King of the North was Russia - which was part of the Allied forces??). This was a bit different explanation than that given in the talk as transcribed below.Below it says the reason we knew was because of Revelation claiming that the Anglo-American power would prevail. (Too bad that wouldn't have worked so well for Viet-Nam).

    Now I know some have already addressed the rise of the UN and how weak the claim was as made last year at the DC - but this is something that I have never heard before. I don't remember reading it in Daniel bookstudy or Revelation Bookstudy. Worse, I feel it might be one of the most blatant attempts at re-writing history that I've ever seen. So here it is: Thanks to Yknot for uploading the talk.

    "I would imagine that many of you were thinking and have used the point too, that the bible is accurate in the sense of prophecy. That is what sets it apart really, from everything else. And you’re right. But we’re not going to talk about old prophecies; we’re going to talk about one that happened within your lifetime for many of you.

    And this is one that took place near the end of the second world war. And that was before the second world war ended, Jehovah’s Witnesses knew from their study of the scriptures, that the Axis powers made up of Hitler, Germany, and also Japan and Italy – they would lose the war.

    This was based upon their understanding of Revelation chapter 17:9,10 where it mentions there would be only 7 world powers and the 7 th one, the Anglo American one, was in existence.

    And also they used the scriptures to see that what had been formerly known as the League of Nations, would go out of existence temporarily but would come back in a very similar form. And in that talk given in 1942, “Peace Can it last” – right during the second world war, it mentioned that fact, that there would be a ‘uniting of nations’ – they didn’t say the ‘United Nations’, they said a ‘uniting of nations’. Some of you have read that before. So they were in understanding of that.

    Heimlich Himmler, who was one of the henchmen of Adolph Hitler, and was head of the Nazi SS, once bragged that the Witnesses would give in, they would capitulate. Now at the end of the Nazi regime, he was on the run. And when he was fleeing he encountered brother Lubke at Harzwalde, and asked him, “well Bible students, what happens now?” [speaker says this attempting to mimic a German accent]. His regime had fallen apart and he was an outlaw. He was on the run. Well brother Lubke gave him a thorough witness and showed that Jehovah’s Witnesses had always reckoned with the collapse of the Nazi regime and with their own deliverance. Well Himmler turned away and not too long after that he committed suicide by poising himself.

    Interestingly enough, another German who was an SS officer, a former SS officer, and this was right after the war, was contacted by Jehovah’s Witnesses who gave him the Booklet, “Peace Can it Last?” and it was written in German. He sat down and read it. And he told his wife, “look this was written in 1942, three years before the war ended. And here they said exactly what was going to happen. These people used the Bible to do this. They must know something. I want to find out.” And he became one of Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    Now you can read about brother Lubke’s experience in the 1974 yearbook on page 211 and the experience of this other German officer who we just talked about in the 1995 Awake, Jan 8 th issue page 13. Modern day fulfillment of prophecy."

    What, if any, reference could a believing Witness use to show that there is any truth to this? And of course on the other hand - what references should those wanting just the truth look to see what the WT was really saying in regards to the Axis Powers and WWII?

  • sherah
  • moshe

    Near the end of WW2 Rutherford was busy building bunkers for him and his Bethel friends- so much for his supposed belief that the Axis powers would be defeated.

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    Ok so I found one interesting item: It's a Brochure that's basically a reprint of a talk by Rutherford from 1941. It's titled: "End of Axis Powers: Comfort All that Mourn".

    The title lends itself for some to believe that JWs did proclaim that the Axis Powers would lose - and in a sense they did. But if you read the whole printed booklet - it basically says that Axis Powers are King of North and the Allied Forces (democratic) are King of the South and both would lose to Theocracy. There is no mention of Revelation 17 with any claim that Anglo American Power would prevail. There is also no mention here that the the UN would rise again.

    Again the year is 1941 and Rutherford is only observing what is going on around the world from his viewpoint. His labeling and Categorizing things as world powers left out any mention of major nations with their own struggles like India and China, Middle East, and Africa where few had heard of JWs idea of theocracy. His rhetoric was still anti-big business/anti religious-meddling. All in all, his speech and this subsequent booklet, might as well have been named 'Axis Powers will lose and So will Allied Forces'. Nothing here whatsover that says Anglo America would come out on top.

    axis Powers


    Anyway this next bit is what I see as a cop out:



    So in essence The End of the Axis Powers was lumped in with all the other Kingdoms to be destroyed at Armageddon - nothing specific here about who would come out Victor in WWII - according to this talk and booklet - neither the Axis Powers nor the Allied forces would win.

    The only clear prediction I see is that every gov't loses and Armageddon would be coming at the end of the WWII struggle seen at the time as King of North vs King of South. This is not what happened though - so chalk this one up as another prediction that utterly failed.

    My search continues - though. I'm sure there are references that back up the talk JWs gave to the public. I'll see if I can find that "Peace can it Last" booklet.

  • shadow

    Might be more related to return of League in the form of the UN, which would not happen if Axis won? UN actually started during war if I recall correctly.

  • booby

    Jehovah's Witnesses knew from their study of the scriptures, that the Axis powers made up of Hitler, Germany, and also Japan and Italy - they would lose the war.

    funny that with their propensity for citing watchtower articles to prove stuff, in this instance they don't point to this kind of reference.

  • JunkYardDog

    i'LL chime in on this one. In the late 1930's OR early 40's when ww2 was just starting the wts proclaimed the king of the north (axis powers) would take over the king of the south (the united state and britian) ie. win the war. before the outbreak of the BIG A. to follow. I'm bored and figured i'd throw out that little tid-bit of an other wt flip flop. the wts also said in the 1950's that the U.S.S.R the king of the north was going to take over the king of the south (U.S. BRITIAN) Of course they were wrong again. I'm bored but not bored enough to look it up . wow sitting at the wt conventions truly gives purposeless boredom a new meaning.

  • JeffT

    I tossed all of my old WTBS literature a number of yearsa ago, and none of it runs back to the 1940's time period. However, I know that they were tossing around intrepretations of the King of the North that stated that the USSR took over that position after the fall of the Third Reich. It might be interesting to ask one of these guys who the King of the North is now. I know that the Daniel book said that the King of the North and the King of the South would be fighting right up until Armageddon. Maybe China or India is now the King of the North, although that would lead me to ask if the divine compass is working correctly.

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    Yeah, JYD, I remember studying all the history of the king of the north etc. They certainly did spew a lot of nonsense that never came true. Having been raised a JW and pushed to go on to be a bethelite and elder as a 4th generation witness on both sides of my parents - studying up on WT/JW org history seemed semi-normal for me as a kid. Of course I always thought conventions were boring, but as a kid, you don't know any better. When I went to what was probably my last convention (I had already stopped believing due to my own research without any help from those whose lives revolve around spreading anti-JW messages, perhaps like JYD), this point really stood out because it smelled like BS. I brought it up to my believing family members. I went to the chairman's office to talk about it. The re-writing of history became very apparent. I had also heard similar JW history re-writes at the last convention regarding the UN predictions. Anyway - while it was boring - anyone that studied WT history using only WT publications and no so-called apostate material, could easily discover this thought maniupulation by listening at a convention.

    So yes, the convention, just like every other one, was quite the bore session, but it sealed in my mind with finality that the org is full of crap. But - to reiterate - when you're born and raised in the org, you're taught that studying org history (among other JW things) is a way of life. Boring - yes - but it's all you know.

    Now - one thing that has never interested me, and still doesn't - is the history of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Neither does the hiostory of L. Ron Hubbard. You know why? Because I was never a mormon nor a scientologist. I have friends and family that are mormons, and I still find it boring. I have one relative that's an ex-mormon. While she certainly knows a lot of her orgs history and crazy re-writes and lies, she would think I was out of my mind if I spent any time pouring over all their history. I'd have to be absolutely nuts if I went around to internet boards and told the mormons how wacked they were and how fading mormons should grow a pair and tell off their elders and family members. That whenever they see two guys on bikes in their neighborhood they should run them down and pin them into an argument that would make them leave with their tail between their legs.

    Then when some fading mormon asks me if I understand what it's like to have grown up a mormon and have all their friends and family - I tell them 'No! I've never been a mormon nor have I ever gone on a mission - I just think faders are pussies. I've studied all up on your religioin and its bs, and you say you know it's bs. I'm not in your shoes, but I found becoming an expert in your church's history an exciting hobby - mainly because I like to antagonize anyone that believes that bs.'

    So, JYD, I'm glad you've decided to study up on a religion you were never a part of. And indeed you are right, conventions are boring. Had I not been raised or converted to a JW, I would've found the whole idea spending any of my time studying JWs history as wasteful as if I would study Mormons or Scientologists. Why somebody would study all the historical details of a religion/cult that they were never a part nor never believed, is beyond me. I suppose some like to study religions for sociiology religions if they have a hobby or profession in that field. However, those folks usually don't peruse internet boards and tell faders that they're weak. They don't need to have an agenda because they respect the fact that people can use their minds and thinking abilities to believe the free speech that comes forth from any religion. The facts speak for themselves. Once you know the facts how you act on those is a personal decision based on ones own unique circumstances of actually being in the religion. Something you could never understand.

    Nonetheless, thanks for your input on my former religion's history - Indeed it confirms what I found out without any help from anti-JW campaigners. Yep - I did it all on my own. No picketers did anything for me except reinforce the JW persecution complex (more often than not they reinforced the crazy/bitter/never-will-get-a-life idea). Nobody ran me down in the ministry to argue me down. No "anti-JW" internet comments made me think. It was all my own conclusions from basic secular education, watchtower publications, and the bible. But hey - I'm glad you're so interested in the history of a religion.cult that you have absolutely no idea what it's like to be a part of. And despite all your knowledge of the history of the org, you'll just never really understand another person that was actually part of it.

    But keep posting if it makes you happy. Keep calling faders spineless if that gets you off. Just do some a favor, and let them know that you were never a JW nor have you been in their shoes - so you really don't have a clue on how you would react if you were. It's a good reminder that even a few non-JWs can get wrapped up in studying boring theological details of two century old adventist spin-offs. Not sure how that even works - but if you could, please let them know there are a lot more interesting things to spend time on if you're not a JW, nor ever have been. Please tell them that just because you don't have a life and the JWs still somehow consumed your time despite never having been one - please tell them that it doesn't have to be that way when they've finally moved on. Please tell them that not only will they not have to go to boring conventions but they won't have to come to any ex-religion board and spend any more of their precious time on non-sensical religious discussions. Much less that there is no reason they'll have to go to any ex-religion board and tell former constituents how to behave. Yeah- you got caught up in it, even though you weren't ever a JW, but it's good to remind others that you're just really an outlier - one that got sucked in to spending time on something that most here were forced to be a part of. Somehow you've done that by choice, and yet still can't relate to others here. Yep - we know you're way way out there, and have chosen a boring religion to become fascinated with - but, we promise. It can get better. Just let it go, man, just let it go. It can be done. millions of former JWs have faded away from the religion only to live a life that says more than anyone could on an internet forum. That life, they live speaks volumes. I hope you can follow all those spineless faders and get a life yourself.

  • Farkel

    In Rutherford's letter "Declaration of Facts" to Hitler, he wrote that he supported Hitler's government and views and that the United States was the evil one.

    Here's what he said:

    "The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position:...Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles... "


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