THE "OTHER SHEEP" ARE NOT GENTILE CHRISTIANS, because...............

by Titus 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Titus
    Titus

    Come on!

    I promise, you don't need to debate with me. Give me only reference on WT publications!

    BANE, Debator, Alice, Scholar - if you don't write any post on this thread, then you are not real Jehovah's Witnesses, and it will tell everything about you!

    You are not here to help somebody, but only to deviate from dispensing of anything by God in connection with faith and to turn aside into idle talk (1 Timothy 1:6).

    And I sugesst to all other posters - don't have any debate with them before they answer me something. Just ignore them and give them link to this thread!

    COMRADE TITO

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    You are wasting your time Dude, it is interpretive man-made doctrine and they know it.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    "In Search of Christian Freedom" by Ray Franz said that there were GB members that believed the real truth, that Jesus WAS referring to Gentile Christians. Sydlik was notorious for this belief. However, I assume that there never was a 2/3 in favor of change.

    Loved that article, by the way, Titus. It's so funny how they dance around the question. They go off course by saying that this belief does not take into account Adam and Eve. How did we ever fall for this stuff?!?!?

  • Titus
    Titus

    PSac - I would like to hear that from their mouth! Or from they keyboard, at least!

    It IS "interpretive man-made doctrine", but it is also interesting to notice that that "interpretive man-made doctrine" has never been interpreted in any WT publication.

    That's interesting!

    OK, I will not waste my time anymore. I am gonna sit back & relax and wait for their answer.

    I am waiting........................................................................................................

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  • Titus
    Titus

    Thank you Brother Dan for your response. I would really like to know more about that information regarding Brother Dan's (Sydlik) belief. That's very interesting!

  • pirata
    pirata

    w74 5/1 pg. 281. (my comments 'boxed')

    Questions From Readers
    ? What evidence is there that those spoken of at John 10:16 as “other
    sheep” are persons who will live on earth in God’s new order?—Italy.
    The identity of the “other sheep” can be determined by considering the
    context in the light of other scriptures.
    Jesus Christ said: “I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my
    sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and
    I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep. And I have other sheep,
    which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will
    listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one
    shepherd.”—John 10:14-16.
    These words reveal that Jesus views as his “sheep” only those who know
    his voice, that is, who recognize his authority over them as their
    shepherd. This makes it clear that the fold of “sheep” that Jesus
    contrasted with the “other sheep” could not have been the nation of
    Israel, for only a small remnant of that nation recognized Jesus
    Christ as their shepherd.
    Who, then, were the “sheep” of the fold that
    would form “one flock” with the “other sheep”? Would they be the
    Jewish disciples, whereas the “other sheep” would be the Gentiles who,
    in time, were accepted as anointed Christians? Though commentators of
    Christendom often present this explanation, it does not harmonize with
    other scriptures.

    A good straw man argument because instead of disproving Christendom's claims that the little flock are "Jewish Christians", they instead disprove that the little flock is the Jewish nation as a whole (which no one ever claimed it was)

    Back in the time of Jesus’ earthly ministry, all who accepted him as
    their shepherd came in line for membership in the heavenly kingdom.
    Jesus said to his disciples: “Have no fear, little flock, because your
    Father has approved of giving you the kingdom.” (Luke 12:32) At other
    times Jesus Christ referred to this “little flock” of disciples as his
    “brothers.”
    (Matt. 12:49; Mark 3:34; Luke 8:21; John 20:17) When, in
    time, Gentiles were accepted by God, anointed with his holy spirit and
    called to heavenly life, they also were “joint heirs with Christ,” his
    “brothers.
    ” (Gal. 3:27-29; Rom. 8:17) Logically, then, the “other
    sheep” would be persons who are not his “brothers”
    but who are brought
    into close association with them.

    Faulty logic. A (disciples) are called B (little flock). A are called C (brothers). D (gentiles) are called C. Therefore D must also be A. That is like saying "Group A are Americans. Group A are called Humans. Russians are called Humans. Therefore Russians must also be Americans." The "logical" conclusion is based on that faulty logic.

    The words of Jesus Christ regarding his coming in Kingdom glory
    confirm this. We read:
    “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with
    him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations
    will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from
    another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he
    will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
    “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who have
    been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from
    the founding of the world. For I became hungry and you gave me
    something to eat; I got thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I
    was a stranger and you received me hospitably; naked, and you clothed
    me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you came
    to me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord,
    when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you
    something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you
    hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in
    prison and go to you?’ And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly
    I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of
    these my brothers, you did it to me.’”—Matt. 25:31-40.
    The “sheep” here mentioned are revealed to be different from Christ’s
    brothers.
    Yet, like Christ’s brothers, they recognize him as their
    “Lord” or shepherd. Both being submissive to him, both groups form
    just one flock. The sheep here mentioned cooperate fully with Christ’s
    brothers, giving active support to them. But how do they differ from
    Christ’s brothers?

    Ignores the reasonable interpretation that brothers could be judged by how they treat their other brothers, thus drawing an unsubstantiated conclusion.

    What the King Jesus Christ said to them helps us to understand that
    two distinct classes are involved. His words to the “sheep” were:
    Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.
    (Matt. 25:34) That is different from what is said of Christ’s
    “brothers.” The membership for the heavenly kingdom that these
    “brothers” were to inherit was foreknown before the “founding of the
    world,” that is, before the world of mankind came into being through
    the birth of children to the first human pair, Adam and Eve. The
    apostle Paul, writing to fellow Christians, states: “[God] chose us in
    union with [Christ] before the founding of the world
    .”—Eph. 1:4, 5.

    The difference in the time element regarding the foreordination of the
    reward definitely points to two different destinies.

    contradicts the Watchtower teaching that if Adam and Eve hadn't sinned, all humans would live on the earth (Why would God choose brothers to go to heaven before the founding of the world if they were all going to live on the earth?).

    The rest of the article is based on assuming the material presented above is true. Also tosses in the word 'evidently'

    Concerning the
    inheritance of Jesus’ “brothers,” the apostle Peter wrote: “Blessed be
    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his
    great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the
    resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and
    undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for
    you.” (1 Pet. 1:3, 4) That heavenly inheritance involves rulership,
    for Revelation 5:10 says: “[Christ] made them to be a kingdom and
    priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
    But over whom will Christ’s “brothers” rule? Over mankind on earth.
    This is in agreement with Revelation 21:3, 4.
    Not being Christ’s brothers, the “other sheep” are evidently in line
    for the blessings of an earth free from sorrow and death. That will be
    their reward under the rulership of Jesus Christ and his joint heirs.
    It is for this reason that they are spoken of as ‘inheriting the
    kingdom prepared for them from the founding of the world.’ The
    original Greek word for kingdom not only means a government but can
    also refer to “reign” or “being ruled by a kingdom.” Thus, the “other
    sheep” inherit the state of being ruled by the King Jesus Christ and
    his associate kings, his “brothers.” As soon as there began to be born
    to Adam and Eve children who would have an opportunity to come under
    Kingdom rule, God’s promise regarding such rule took effect. In this
    sense, the “kingdom,” that is, the state of being ruled by the
    kingdom, was prepared for humankind “from the founding of the world.”
    The testimony of the Bible as a whole thus points to the “other sheep”
    as persons who will gain life on earth under the rule of God’s kingdom
    by Christ, whether of the “great crowd” of “tribulation” survivors or
    of the resurrected dead ones of mankind.—Acts 24:15.

  • Titus
    Titus

    Thank you! I have to translate it before I study it. Thank you very much!

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    LOL.

    Nice breakdown, Pirata.

    Syl

  • Titus
    Titus

    LOL.

    However, that's not what I ask. No, Pirata, your post is good, but again, they don't answer WHY THE "OTHER SHEEP" ARE NOT THE GENTILE CHRISTIANS.

    They write about different hopes, again.

    What evidence is there that those spoken of at John 10:16 as “other sheep” are persons who will live on earth in God’s new order?

    As I said - I have to translate it first!

    Thank you, Pirata.

  • yknot
    yknot

    Is it this one?

    *** w80 7/15 p. 23 par. 6 The “Fine Shepherd” and His “Other Sheep” ***

    6 Churches of Christendom claim that the “fold” there spoken of by Jesus was to contain only Jewish Christians, whereas the “other sheep” are those who become Christians from among the non-Jews or Gentiles; and that both believing Jews and believing Gentiles become “one flock” under the “one shepherd” in the one spiritual fold. But this teaching disagrees with other Bible scriptures bearing on the subject. Although the apostle John does not mention it in his Gospel account, Jesus did speak of an earthly Paradise under his kingdom and he spoke of others as being “sheep” besides the “little flock” of his heavenly joint heirs. When Jesus gave his prophecy on the “sign” of his then future presence and of the conclusion of the system of things, he closed it, according to Matthew’s account, with the parable of the sheep and the goats. Those “sheep” were to be different from Christ’s spiritual “brothers,” to whom these sheeplike ones do good things.—Luke 23:43; Matt. 24:3; 25:31-46.

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