Advice on introducing doubts to friend

by gutted 23 Replies latest jw experiences

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  steve2

  Steve, I want my friend to be free of the WBTS clutches as I (almost) am. I think it's natural to want to dissuade our close friends and family from harmful beliefs. I think that was one of the motivations, if not the main one, behind Steve Hassan writting Combating Cult Mind Control.

  The great thing about this forum is it "allows" many different views, with no one view being the absolute "Right" one.

  Steve Hassan is indeed an expert on cults - although whether he is "authority" enough to cite in leading you to want your "friend to be free of the WTBS clutches" is arguable. Unintentionally, your approach comes across as not dissimilar to the WTBS mentality on trying to help family and friends be free of "wordly" clutches. I'm well over the let's-get-them-out-of-the-cult mentality because it means I have simply swapped my zeal from bringing 'em into the organization to now wanting to get 'em out. Bor-ing.

  The take home message to me is simple: Accepting that my JW relatives and former JW friends are free to decide for themselves what they want to do with their lives. I have faith in people's ability to work stuff out for themselves. The proof of that is the large numbers of JWs who do leave and/or fade. Contrary to Steve Hassan, I do not see the Watchtower as a prison so much as a tightly controlled "child-care centre". It suits people who don't want to fully grow up and take responsibility for their lives, but who want seemingly "bigger" and "wiser" adults to make decisions for them. That's actually the way, large numbers of humans in general are anyway. And if that's what people choose, that's fine with me.
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  undercover

  I do not see the Watchtower as a prison so much as a tightly controlled "child-care centre". It suits people who don't want to fully grow up and take responsibility for their lives, but who want seemingly "bigger" and "wiser" adults to make decisions for them.

  If it weren't for the DFing/shunning policy and the dangerous blood doctrine, I'd agree 100%. But those two things make JWs somewhat more dangerous than other fundie sects. So it's more than a child care center, it's more of a mental institution where lobotomies (metephorically speaking) are standard procedures to keep the patients calm and obedient.

  But you do have a point about accepting JW relatives as such. Even when we may take the oppurtunity to try to show them some real truth, in the end, it is their right to worship/believe as they choose.
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  brotherdan

  I totally agree with undercover. At first it does seem to just be an organization that appeals to the lazy of mind and those that want to be told what to do. But they play with lives. They have convinced themselves that they are doing Jesus' work, so they are justified in their policies. As my dad puts it, "This is a perfect organization, run by imperfect men." They hide under the guise of a "Perfect Organization".

  But it's so incredibly dangerous and destructive. It ruins families. I personally apply Titus 1:11 to it. I wish there was more we could do to stop the organization. But I've come to the conclusion that it allows God to sift out those that want to serve him for selfish purposes and "earn" their salvation on a fleshly paradise earth, and those that accept His free gift of grace and have a far greater spiritual hope.
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  steve2

  So it's more than a child care center, it's more of a mental institution where lobotomies (metephorically speaking) are standard procedures to keep the patients calm and obedient.

  I acknowledge that's what it is like for many people. But from where I am in New Zealand, I see people successfully fading and/or becoming pew sitters and they're fine with that. I also have a more two-way view of people's tendencies to give their lives over to "bigger" adults. Some people actually seem to prefer being told what to do and when - in fact the world is teeming with people who go seeking for "authorities" to help them make sense of their lives. And good on them. Of course, some times they will go looking for direction in life and boy will they "find" it and get more than perhaps they bargained for at the time (and that doesn't just relate to religion, but all sorts of sociopolitical causes!

  Nah, the JWs are a minor blip on the field of human endeavour - one of far too many tightly controlled groups. That's not to minimise the pain that is associated with them. But that hardly makes me want to get 'em out. Besides, as I've said often before, if they're a prison, they're not a very good one, given the HUGE numbers who leave, if not in body then in spirit! For me, the analogy of a tightly controlled child care centre works better and makes the JWs seem less like victims and more like "willing" children who never quite grow up.
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  brotherdan

  About the goatee... Um...doesn't everyone realize that C.T Russell had a beard?!? The new DVD has most of the actors in beards. This is one of the most silly policies propogated by Rutherford and continued by Knorr. If you look at the publications of the 40's - 60's even Adam and Jesus are portrayed as clean shaven.Yet further control that they are able to excercise over people's lives.

  It is funny though that that will probably be the first thing your friend recognizes. At the memorial every year you know the ones that aren't "good" JWs because they have beards or goatees. Screwy...
• 

  gutted

  The take home message to me is simple: Accepting that my JW relatives and former JW friends are free to decide for themselves what they want to do with their lives. I have faith in people's ability to work stuff out for themselves. The proof of that is the large numbers of JWs who do leave and/or fade.

  I'm totally onboard with allowing people to choose what they wish to do with their lives, that's the only reasonable course IMO. But is it in your view then useless to respectfully point out if a person is making poor life choices? I don't know about you but I did find my family helpful (yes even under the JW umbrella) in making me see the wrong in taking drugs/drinking too much and providing support. I also find articles, books, whatever the media on peoples insights and experiences invaluable as far as what choices would be best for me, one reason why I'm really liking this forum. Also I believe it is motivation for people who start and maintain sites like this one, freeminds etc. I think people need "slight proddings" in helping them broaden their view, and therefore make informed choices. Hence the desire to present these things to my friend in a respectful manner.

  Contrary to Steve Hassan, I do not see the Watchtower as a prison so much as a tightly controlled "child-care centre". It suits people who don't want to fully grow up and take responsibility for their lives, but who want seemingly "bigger" and "wiser" adults to make decisions for them. That's actually the way, large numbers of humans in general are anyway. And if that's what people choose, that's fine with me.

  That's quite a generalization. No doubt it appeals to some of the people who "want others to make decisions for them", but not all. I think it has more to do with indoctrination and guilt/fear which inhibits people from making their own choices as far as cults go. Once they are out then they can truly decide if they want to be in a "child-care centre". I for one was raised in it, so I didn't have a choice, but thankfully to sites like this one I now do.
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  steve2

  I for one was raised in it, so I didn't have a choice, but thankfully to sites like this one I now do.

  Me too. My maternal grandparents converted from Methodists to Bible Students in New Zealand in the 1920s and my paternal grandparents started studying with the then newly-named JWs in the 1930s. IMHO, humans in one form or another are often "saddled" with baggage from childhood. One of the besk known examples is the level of guilt that those raised in Catholic households will often talk about. I went to school with kids who belonged to the local Exclusive Brethren. I also went to school with kids whose parents had no religious affiliation but who were heavily into alcohol.

  here's what I'm saying: The Watchtower is a pathetci excuse for a prison what with all the fading and leaving going on. I estimate that fully 80 percent of the extended family is no longer heavily involved in the religion. yes, there's a good percentage that are more nominal. Of the 20 percent still actively in, only a hard core of perhaps 5% are zealous and fully committed to it.

  What strikes me more than the admittedly sad stories of obvious victimhood (the suicides, bitter divorces, shunning children etc) is the obvious resilience of many of those who been caught up in this loathsome child-care centre at some point in their lives and still had the wherewithal to get out and get on with life. If you want to see real oppression, look at the vicious treatment of outcasts in small village communities in India - that might help you get some perspective on the relative "oppression" of the Watchtower Society, no better or worse than many other big bossy groups in developed countries.
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  sabastious

  Tell them that their religion is a dangerous cult and they should get out while they still can.

  ...it could work.

  -Sab
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  gutted

  Well I did talk to my friend last night. For better or worse I focused on how poorly "judicial" matters are handled and try to stear it more towards the organization being the culprit then the "imperfect people" excuse. He did go into JW mode, with "go talk to the Elder that called you, go to meetings". I also talked about how I feel pressured/guilted into things instead of doing it out of love, and I don't feel it's right. He excused it by saying it is more cultural "oh the brothers in Mexico are so much better".

  But at the end he relaxed and told me about the issue he had in his previous congregation and the current one. I did also mention to him "you might have to make a choice about our friendship" and that I haven't gone to meetings for the last while. It was pretty emotional, but he was a good friend about it, so far. I see real potential in exposing everything to him but it is such a fine balancing act.

  I hope to make more inroads using questions like suggested.
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  OnTheWayOut

  On the other hand, your question implies you haven't quite shaken off the need to "win" converts, a role you probably had as a JW; Finding ways to get people interested in the "truth"? Why can't you model to your friends nice, gentle acceptance of them, regardless of what their beliefs are?

  I'm intrigued by people's need to try and "persuade" others to change their beliefs. Fair enough if those people are voicing their own doubts and misgivings or if they are pushing their beliefs on you. Otherwise, leave well alone. The world continues to spin on its axis regardless of people's beliefs.

  I will "accept" any JW's regardless of what they believe. But it isn't that simple. Trying to "convert" them is an act of love, much more so than the act of duty that JW's use to attempt conversion. Those of us who recognize the dangerous mind-control cult for what it is are trying to sincerely help.
  How much is a person believing what THEY want to believe if they change their beliefs with new WT-light.

  I'm well over the let's-get-them-out-of-the-cult mentality because it means I have simply swapped my zeal from bringing 'em into the organization to now wanting to get 'em out. Bor-ing.

  I find that statement to be insulting to any of us that want to help a loved one to know the real truth. My wife knows that I am not an evil bastard in Satan's clutches, but the WTS keeps telling her that I am. Zeal to free her from such manipulation is not done to "win" some game, not just a swapping of zeal.

  The take home message to me is simple: Accepting that my JW relatives and former JW friends are free to decide for themselves what they want to do with their lives. I have faith in people's ability to work stuff out for themselves.

  Laws have been developed to combat untruthfulness in advertising because experts have realized how dangerous lies and manipulation can be. Are your relatives really deciding for themselves what Jesus evidently meant by "generation" or are they just following because of a manipulative organization.

  Imagine a "child care centre" that teaches children that the governments are evil or that science is lying to mankind. Totally irresponsible. Blame the children all you want for their gullibility but we have been there and know that what WTS does is wrong.

  You make it sound like those that remain JW's are not "mature" enough to leave, like the fault is all theirs. Most people here have loved ones in, we know it is not intelligence or maturity or any one factor of personality in many cases. Those are contributing factors, but rocket scientists and stable people have been deceived.

  If you were to read my story of becoming a dub, you would fit me right in with "weak" individuals that eventually grew out of it. I would suggest that WTS interfered with my getting proper help with my "weaknesses" for nearly 2 decades and allowed a dangerous flaw in myself to remain. Rescueing loved ones is the humane thing to do. Leaving them in and offering gentle help is often the only option to help them see the danger that WTS does to them.