My Standing "Bet" With JW Family

by TD 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • snowbird

    LOL at NVL.

    Cheeky as ever, aren't you?


  • LouBelle

    My bet goes along the lines of "If Armegeddon doesn't come in the next 5 years, will you listen to me then"

    Got 4 more years to go.

  • TD


    Just a side-question: If Christ's death removed the death sentence hanging over our heads, but our "sinful state is unchanged in God's sight", then what good is Christ's ransom?

    Both views hold that Christ essentially stepped in front of a "bullet" aimed at us (Metaphorically speaking of course....) The wages of sin have been paid and justice has been served.

    Where they differ is in what effect payment of this dept actually has on humans. Did it free humanity from death only or did it free humanity from sin as well? In other words, in God's eyes, are humans still in a fallen state or not?

    This is a very old debate that goes back to the split between the Eastern and Western churches. Eastern orthodoxy accepts the idea that Christ freed us from death but rejects the idea that humans have also been freed from sin yet. There are entire books on this subject that probably explain it much better than I have....

    It really seems to me though that Jehovah's Witnesses today are actually a little closer to Barbour's view than they are to Russell's. They believe that humanity is still in a fallen (imperfect) state even after the ransom has been paid and that the restoration back to a sinless (perfect) state is a closely related but separate process that takes place in the future. (i.e. During the Millennium)

    That is very, very similar to the Eastern view of theosis which holds that transformation of the believer back to the likeness of God is not a passive process for the believer -- It requires effort on their part.

  • snowbird

    Theosis, partaking of or sharing in the divine nature.

    That was Russell's main objective, wasn't it?


  • StAnn

    To answer Mary's question.

    From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

    Hence follows the perfection of the salvation wrought by Christ for mankind. On His part Christ offered to God a satisfaction for man's sinnot only sufficient but superabundant (Romans 5:15-20); on God's part supposing, what is contained in the very idea of man's redemptionthrough Christ, that God agreed to accept the work of the Redeemer for the sins of man, He was bound by His promise and His justice to grant the remission of sin to the extent and in the manner intended by Christ. In this way our salvation has won back for us the essentialprerogative of the state of original justice, i.e., sanctifying grace while it will restore the minor prerogatives of the Resurrection. At the same time, it does not at once blot out individual sin, but only procures the means thereto, and these means are not restricted only to thepredestined or to the faithful, but extend to all men (1 John 2:2; 1 Timothy 2:1-4). Moreover salvation makes us coheirs of Christ(Romans 8:14-17), a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9; cf. Exodus 19:6), sons of God, temples of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 3:16), and other Christs--Christianus alter Christus; it perfects the angelical orders, raises the dignity of the material world, and restores all things inChrist (Ephesians 1:9-10). By our salvation all things are ours, we are Christ's, and Christ is God's (1 Corinthians 3:22-23).

  • snowbird

    This discussion is so much more fascinating than the WT's "balancing the scales of justice, perfect life for perfect life" nonsense.

    Hope I'm not too far off course here.


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