Help with irrefutable arguments- creating dissonance

by confliction 64 Replies latest jw friends

  • zoiks

    Hi Confliction,

    I'm just going to reiterate what Jamie said - be careful! You risk losing too much, too soon. I understand the frustration when you're newly waking up. Just remember that raising questions and doubts about the 'truth' is not going to lead to a reasonable discussion with JWs, your parents included. Been there, done that, and am now on the brink of losing what's left of family and former friends.

    That said, some of the replies above give good questions to ask.

    Steve Hassan's Releasing the Bonds is perhaps a good read before you try more - lots of info on how to communicate.

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    As already said, try no to back yourself into a corner. Im keeping my mouth shut with my family also, even when opportunities come up I do not say its a CULT, I dont believe, etc.

    "I have doubts", is acceptable, but if your tone of voice or answers stray too negative you lose the discussiuon and they shut off listening with defences UP.

    My Regular Pioneer mother is reading my copy of Steven Hassans Combatting Cult Mind Control, BECAUSE I kept my mouth shut before hand and so far have not told her I quit! As soon as I do so, the chances of her reading anything else like my copy of A History of the End of the World, or even Crisis of Conscience fall to ZERO! She finds it interesting in so far as she feels it doesnt apply to the WTS, but could be useful in helping others in the ministry, but thats fine, she cant UNKNOW it can she. ...And I wanted her to get the CULT symptoms stuff in here brain ready for the DA in a few weeks time so maybe something will click. + I have other family in who will shut down if i push too far.

    So be patient, choose your timing and think thru the likely consequences of both what you say and when you say it.


  • Quandry

    Now they're encouraging me to do "research", which involves only learning things through WT publications.

    Actually, this is the perfect scenario for you. They don't want to take your word, but view the WTS as the bastian of truth. Here is a possibility....Look up information in older WT magazines, but while you are doing it find some things that contradict. Maybe go to and look under changes.

    Then RESPECTFULLY say something like, "While looking up ___ I came accross this....why has the WTS changed its view on the resurrection of those in Sodom and Gomorrah over and over again?" Or, "Did you know that at one time the WTS said that having an organ transplant was like cannibalization?" or "Why did the WTS say at one time that taking a vaccination was like taking pus into the body? It seems they changed the doctrine when they wanted to travel overseas and had to have them. Why did they do that?"

    Please feed this a little at a time, or the "arguing" is going to get old to your parents. Allow them plenty of time to answer your questions. After all...they told you to do the research.

  • wasblind

    I would most definitly use what mentally free used. also i would show them Things in the" reasoning from the scriptures book"

    such as on page 234, where it says that the generation of 1914 will not pass away.

    then on page 242, on the top it confirms this by stating if God required that we wait for another generation, there would be few survivors, and God purpose that there be survivors, thats how they know the end is near.

    now they changed it with new light says the 1914 generation won't be the one to see it but, people who's lives overlaped will see the end.

    even if they tell you the light gets brighter asked them why would God make a promise to the 1914 generation and take it back

    and if they say God is working through imperfect men ask them why would a God who cannot lie tell them false information

    and if they it's a time of testing ask them them with all thes changes haven't the org been tested enough.

    BTW reasoning from the scriptures is a book they still use FOR NOW

  • confliction

    I want to thank all of you for both your advice (some of it, quite insensitive...) and your warnings.

    As for questioning parents, I understand that I have a lot to risk in doing this, but my issue is not losing my family...
    I am currently evaluating what the right course is.

    It's a bit of a russian roulette game, but the difference is that this is theoretically calculable and manipulable towards my favor.

    My parent's, from an honest standpoint, don't have many more years left on theirs side. My father is getting close to 70, and my
    mother has just started in her sixties.I, as any good-hearted person, want them to die happy. But on the other side, (and understanding
    that I now see myself as agnostic) this is the only life I have, and it would be a shame to waste half of it to something so vain.
    It really hurts- on one side, I want my folks to understand the truth about the "truth"... but on the other side, I don't want them
    to die without having some form of comfort.

    I feel tempted not to say this but I feel that it is necessary - but I am frankly more intelligent and more understanding when it
    comes to analyzing things from a logical standpoint than they. I don't believe in demons, I don't believe that God, if he exists, is actually
    interacting with people and guiding them with any true purpose.
    This is my opinion that I am entitled to, mind you, and I ask that you respect that.

    The fact is, my parents just don't have the mental capacity to grasp what I understand; what I know. And because of this, I know that even if
    I were to get them to realize this was all a lie, they would come to the conclusions that any and every one else has been through. That is, withdrawal of a cultic mindset. I can't be happy knowing that I took away this future my parents thought they had for over 35 years...
    I'm sure you can contemplate how that may feel.
    So I'm really just going through a debate right now about how far I really want to take this, in regards to my parents.

    The reason I want the argument, though, is that I want my parents to understand my decisions. I don't want to leave them in the dark, thinking
    that if I leave it's because of a girl, or some temptation like drugs (which they believe the 'world' is all about, of course).
    They can't see a life without the bible- they can't understand that a person devoid of god can still have morals.

    That, just because you doubt the existence of a deity, that you can't still siphon the bits of wisdom the bible does have to offer, and apply those
    in your life.

    Nevertheless, the entire ordeal is something to truly ponder over and meditate on.

    Steve2: I can see the wisdom in what you're saying, but if you were ever a witness then you'll know ever situation when leaving is different, and much more complex than anyone but you yourself could possibly comprehend and evaluate.

    As much as I would love to go commando and just 'cut my losses', I need more time to compare other options. As much as I would love to just fade out of this nightmare, I know that odds are that eventually I will have to face the reality of losing people I love. It's rumor that elders must now contact people that fade at all costs, and define the line, so to speak (This, coming from LuciousVBogeymanProd on youtube...).

    I think people are already beginning to avoid me, and I see the elders watching me more than usual... it hurts to see what's in store. And I can't do a damn thing about it...


    I'll keep keep peeps updated though- keep in touch you all.

  • wasblind

    confliction, be carefull when talking to you parents and only show them things in the watch tower literature that can prove your point

    such as: On pg 133 in "Reasoning from the Scriptures" it says: If any individuals or Organizations claim to represent God but decline to use God's personal name,and make it a practice to express their own opinions on matters,are they measuring up to this important qualification of a true prophet?"

    The Watchtower Organization claim to be Gods only channel on earth. They use Jehovahs personal name. And they claim they don't use their own personal opinion on matters, but hold strickly to Bible principles.

    Yet when their prophosies did not come to pass, according to their qualifications of a prophet. does this make them false.

    show them in the sept 15, 2010 watchtower, on page 13 paragragh 8 in the last sentence where it is stated that this come from God not man.

    Now read Dueteronomy 18:21-22

    hopes this helps please be careful if they think your gone apostate they won't listen at all no matter what you show them.

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    I've been thinking carefully thru my own situation with regard to my mother as well, she has 50 yrs in "the Truth" and is in her 70s. I also like you want her to KNOW whats what so that her faith if it continues is based on knowledge, ...however it also strikes me as cruel and unkind to take away the thing she has believed in for all this time and that is her whole world.

    So I am divided as to what to do. I have taken the gradual approach so far in becomming inactive and being seen to do real research into the "Truth", That was for my benefit so that I could give it a fair shot and if it stood up to scrutiny then I'd reconsider my doubts. However my doubts are now very firm and I want out, BUT it cant just be a selfish snap decision for me, I have other considerations to consider also. One is that I know most of my family will shut down and I will lose the chance to help them if I act too hasty, but it's a balance as I have my own life I now want to pursue and the freedoms now on offer are very much appealing and exciting. So im being patient for now.

    Like you I also want (when the time comes) for me leaving to be about doctrine, not about girls or gambling, or something else. I want the facts to be straight regarding my reasons and not clouded in personal or sexual matters that then lingers in gossip. Doctrine front and centre will be what everyone will be talking about, but most likely it will just be the badge "Apostate" after which all mental faculties will shut down among the R&F.

    I see alot of similarities with your situation so I am prompted to offer something to your efforts.


  • dgp


    Something I never see is how a worldly could help that process. Maybe it's more difficult since we are already "bad association".

  • undercover
    ...the arguments I'm trying to use just aren't getting through...

    If someone wants to believe, they're going to matter the evidence contrary to their beliefs.

    But, in the off-chance that you might can make a dent, read up on all the definitions of "generation", including the latest one from this spring. This site is excellent:

    Now, don't go and print this or get your parents to visit the site. You need to study this and learn it. Know inside and out, backwards and forwards. Become an expert on all things "generation" as far as JW doctrine goes. Find all the quotes in actual WT literature so you can show them from their own publications - if you can get that far.

    The generation teaching change from what most of us were raised with to what they teach now is one of the most damning pieces of evidence showing the false predictions from the WTS. Compare what they said in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and now. This trumps 1975. This trumps 1914 and 607.

    Another word of caution - don't let em jump around on you. They're already doing that from what you've shared. They ask questions meant to deflect the argument. Everytime they get cornered they find some other point to argue and you never get anywhere. And when things get tense and you sense that they're shutting down, don't belabor the point. They're not listening anymore. You're not going to de-program anyone in one sitting...even if they were open to your evidence. It takes time to work through these things. But as long as they want to accept the WTS explanations and teachings, you may be beating your head against the wall. Don't be surprised if you make absolutely no progress with them at all.

  • wannabefree

    You have to get past the antivirus. The Witness mind has antivirus and firewall to deflect the obvious attacks. Just as a "trojan" gets in to a computer because the user allows it believing there is no threat, the same is for the Witness mind.

    For years I know that I would have ignored your irrefutable arguments.

    This video made me think. I was researching the religion of a new call I had out in service. I didn't perceive the danger to my own faith, but after watching it, the damage was done, I saw way too many similarities and my mind was ready to learn more. Perhaps this approach will be of assistance to you.

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