I don't know what made be buy the Universal Sovereignty argument for the permission of evil

by gubberningbody 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    I think we bought it because we had no alternative that would allow us to think of God as basically benevolent. Agonus said it--no issue, no debate, nothing to prove, nothing to settle.

    Guber, you mention "to know 'anything' I'd have to know 'everything'".

    The thing that increasingly disturbed me about the WTS was that they contined to speak authoritatively in areas that they had no right to speak at all (maybe everything). I found myself outraged --not "enraged against Jehovah", as the Branch implied in a letter to me, but against them. They cauterized all thought and prescribed our daily--our momentary--observance of God. The interior quiet to lhear that small soundthat cannot be anticipated: God: "be still and know that I am God" was never possible once the WTS got hold of you.

    That became the focus, that need for solitary reflection, of my severing ties with the WTS and all Organized religion. It developed out of the realization that while we revered the "God inspired"scriptures, and believed that we protected the words of God by defining and enforcing a uniform "pure language" on others. The "we" that we made ourselves in religion violates the very most basic tenet of faith--it's solitude. When armies of believers think they are protecting the holy place by their uniformity and numbers they are not inside the temple protecting it from the infidels, they are the infidels..

    If Bible stories and the impulse to share them with others are inspired by God, then alas, the words of the scriptures are themselves of our own invention. By that I mean that can only share stories that use words whose very origins are "un-godly". If His ways are indeed higher than our ways than it seems reasonable that He might have words with happier definitions than "slaughter", "rape", "torment", and purposes more elevated than these enacted by some of the Chosen people: "and drove the pin into his temples and beat it into the earth","and limb by limb cut her in twelve pieces", "... and pierced both of them through, the man of Israel and the woman through their genital parts."

    If I have to "know everything" about God before I will accept that he IS then I am either bound for personal frustration or bound to create or look for a religion. If God is "real"then the first and most vital element to knowing Him is to see him present.

    And doesn't God know that Himself?

    Personally I left the WTS because I chose to be ignorant once again. I told them I wanted the freedom to be wrong. I even want the freedom to be laughed at --and to laugh at myself. Genesis 22 saved my life. The story is really about how much hinged on so little knowledge of God. An old man's foolish ignorance and his conversation with another fool, his son: "Where's the lamb for the burnt offering?" This account formed the framework for me to be so silly as to ultimately walk away from "God's Organization" who has all the answers and trust that God could bless my own foolishness.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Yes, a great topic!

    I just had this conversation with a family member a couple weeks ago....

    Really, now....where does The Christ himself say this is a Universal Sovereignty issues?????? WHERE??? WHERE?? Such blasphemy!

    The issue....we were born in sin, alienated from God, and was in need of a Savior. The Christ. Period.

  • bohm

    mind blown: but why was we born with sin? did God create us in that way on purpose?

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Oh my dear......I personally believe....that's purely mans/human "limited" interpretation of the old book....we truly only have an exquisite "tiny glimpse" of atomic consciousness.....and true natures of reality........

    This psychic drama is being played out because we are a new breed of consciousness to ourselves and fear our own being......until understand and get a grip of our new natures......

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Oh by the way bohm.....I was repeating what the BOOK says.......and so tell me......where exactly does "The Christ" talk or teach about The Universal issue???

  • bohm

    mind blown: Well, never claimed the bible mentions Universal Sovereignty. I dont think the bible give a coherent explanation for suffering at all.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    ...my point exactly.......the Universal issue is a just one of MANY concocted GB story telling ideas........so they read a story of job and pull a full on doctrine of that.....

  • Strider Arekksu
    Strider Arekksu

    The Bible is missing some books, the Gentiles took out some of the scriptures when they stole them and created Christinainty - there is no such thing as religion in the Bible (God only works through fleshly Isrealites when it comes to teaching his word), it was not by God's hand that books were taken out. If you read some of the missing books you get the plot holes. What the FRUIT Satan actually had was - (information humans had no right to know), why there was a flood, how bad humans actually got, the fact that Noah preached for over 100 years before the flood and no one listened, that Isreal was never rejected, and who the true Isrealites actually are today and the fact that God is hiding from Isreal right now for what they did, all you can see is the curses upon them, but the curses are so damn strong, no one can see it. I'll probably make a thread of it latter.

  • MrFreeze

    I always think about this, if God exists he created the potential for sin. He created us, all of our emotions, everything that we COULD do. So any sin that exists, he created because by God all things were created. To me it's like giving your kid a gun, sticking the bullets on the table and being surprised when the kid ends up blowing his head off.

  • Terry

    God, by definition, cannot exist in a Universe which contains Evil unless you drop "good" from God's description.

    The minute you invest God with All Power you destroy the "good" in God in the presence of Evil.

    If God becomes the Creator of everything and Evil exists then God becomes the de facto creator of Evil and hence its source.

    Being is itself a responsibility in the face of non-being. God cannot not exist and consequently is responsible.

    The all-knowing do not need to test anything for a conclusion about consequence. Testing Adam would not be a test which reveals something to an All-Knowing being.

    The only thing you can tempt a being with consists of what the being lacks. God cannot be tempted because He lacks nothing.

    What God denied Adam was that which enabled Adam to be tempted.

    By denying Adam equality God guaranteed the lack which led to the first human's temptation and fall.

    The urge to be like God knowing Good and Bad was not self-created by Adam. It was included in his essential humanity.

    Consequently, succumbing to temptation to be like God (knowing Good and Bad) was created by God.

    Acting contrary to our own self-interest cannot be a test by a righteous God. Why?

    Seeking to be like God (knowing Good and Bad) is in Adam's self-interest--but--so is obeying God to refrain from obtaining the knowledge which makes him LIKE God.

    Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

    The stuff of myth and legend!

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