I don't know what made be buy the Universal Sovereignty argument for the permission of evil

gubberningbody

...but it seems foundational to any intelligent investing in a religion.

I you can't provide a morally upright reason for the permission of evil without just having the deity pull rank and declare himself righteous, then I'm not really interested in hearing any more.

Were I to listen, it would be out of morbid curiosity, not out of any intent to invest.

exwhyzee

Like so many other beliefs...at first glance they sound like they make sense, but on some level it doesn't quite add up.

Why would an Almighty God need to prove anything to anyone, let alone at the expense of Billions of suffering humans ?

Weren't the Angels around long enough before the existence of Adam and Eve to know exactly who had the right to rule ?

And why would it have taken all these thousands of years and billions of lives to prove his point ?

Even if the point is proven, the outcome is the same....get rid of the one causing the trouble.

agonus

Right. God is, by definition, the Universal Sovereign, no issue, no debate, nothing to prove, nothing to settle.

It seems that so many want to skip over this really big issue and just get in bed with Jesus, so to speak. I'm not in the "I know with a certainty that this is all just a collosal accident" camp just yet, I'd have to know more, but examining the "opposition" just amplifies for me the ridiculous basis many have for their belief.

Like these, for instance...

Thirty Proofs of God

We can never really prove or disprove the existence of God. Therefore, God exists.
The essence of being human is the freedom to choose. If there was no God, then there could be no choice of beliefs. Therefore, God exists.
If there wasn't something keeping everything together, the whole universe would fall apart. Therefore, God exists.
God is all-powerful and can therefore do anything He likes. Such a marvellous being would never want to not exist, so therefore God most certainly does exist.
Life would be meaningless without God and the thought of this simply makes me unhappy. We cannot live without hope. Therefore, God must exist.
If there were no God, religion would have no meaning and society would tear itself apart. Therefore, God has to exist.
Life is a miracle. All miracles come from God. Therefore, God exists.
Even though I know very little about Nature, I feel certain that it could not have, by itself, produced things like consciousness, sunsets and birds. Therefore, God exists.
All of us have a yearning for something deeper, and God wouldn't have given us this yearning if He didn't actually exist. Therefore, logically, God cannot help but exist.
The light in a child's eyes has to come from somewhere and it couldn't possibly be that dull, grey mass called the brain. Therefore, the evidence points to the fact that God exists.
The determined efforts of a child struggling to stand and make his first steps would be futile if there was no God. Therefore, God exists.
The Bible says that God exists and it would never lie. Therefore, God exists.
Millions of people believe in God and they can't all be wrong. Therefore, God has to exist, you see.
There are many religions in the world and they all agree that God exists. Therefore, God exists.
If God didn't exist, then the saints would be wasting their lives. This is simply not fair, so God has to exist.
There have been many who have martyred themselves in the service of God. Look at the early Christians in Rome! It is simply inconceivable that they would have sacrificed themselves like this had God not actually existed. Therefore, it is clear that God exists.
I am a person and therefore important. Therefore, God really does exist!
When I kneel down and pray for God's forgiveness, I feel uplifted, as if touched by a higher power. Therefore, God exists.
I have just entered into a heavenly state of consciousness which was timeless and profound. Dreary old matter is not sufficient to explain this marvelously blissful experience. Therefore, I know that God exists.
Since becoming a Christian, I have given up my drinking and whoring, and have become a better person who cares for others. I am currently at peace with the world. How can you account for this other than the fact that God exists?
When I entered the Christian community, I felt for the first time I truly belonged. Here at last was my true family, a family I have never known. Therefore, you can have my word on it, God most certainly does exist.
Look, the Pope says He exists. Therefore, He exists.
Even the atheist falls on his knees in a crisis and prays. What better proof that God exists!
When I prayed to God, He cured my mother's cancer. Therefore, how can you say that God doesn't exist?
Love is heavenly. Love is divine. Love is out of this world. Therefore, God exists.
Unfortunately, we are only human. We cannot become perfect, as Jesus urged us to do. Therefore, God exists in order to console us.
To believe in God enhances one's life more than not believing in Him. Therefore, God necessarily exists.
I don't want to know anything. I just want everything to be a great mystery, like in childhood. I just want to bury my head in God's shoulders and cry. Therefore, God exists.
I deserve a reward for the wretched life I lead. God wouldn't walk away from His responsibilities as Creator and not exist, would he? Therefore, God has no other obligation but to exist.
Although my head tells me that God is a ludicrous concept, my heart cries out for His existence. Indeed, the fact that I see God as being ludicrous is precisely a test of my faith. The more ludicrous God appears to me, the stronger is my faith in believing in Him. Therefore, after examining the matter from all angles, I can only conclude that God exists.

exwhyzee

Christians believe God had no beginning....had no parents or siblings....he always existed....

But find it impossible to believe that the earth and the planets could have always existed as well ...rather they insist that everything had to be created by God because nothing can come....from nothing.

gubberningbody

exwhyzee... seen this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2ujpzdeolA

oh and ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzf8q9QHfhI

Funny thing that Mr Deity is an ex cult member himself... Mormon.

agonus

"I'm not in the I know with a certainty that this is all just a collosal accident"

Well, that's good, because, er... you can't.

gubberningbody

Exactly agonus. I used to be an agnostic JW. Now I'm just agnostic. Agnosticism is the only defensible position. If the world is a whole, and disconnectedness is an illusion as suggested by the Alain Aspect experiment (the two slit experiment conducted in 1982 where spearated electrons were seen to 'communicate' instantaneously 'defying' the speed of light) then to "know" anything I'd have to "know" everything. Failing that I can say that I really don't know anything. The impositions of the illusions of existence demand, however that I act, and so I must do so based on a relative and faulty calculus, because this is all I have available to me at present.

bohm

Brilliant thread. I very much like the simple way you phrase the question. Its good to have these once in a while :-)

In the words of our own TD (or was it leavingwt?) "I think suffering is one of the least developed aspects of christianity" [i paraphrase]

It was my impression when i read Genesis that God was not onmipotent and he had a hard time controlling his emotions. From that perspective it sort of make sence, sortof. But when you dress up God to be this super-duper-being who just want everyone to be happy, you got to invent the stupid idea that God has something to proove to a talking snake, and that involve killing his son to forgive us for, uhm, eating the wrong fruit, watching porn and killing his son.

cult classic

I think it made us feel good to think we were standing up for Jehovah. To take a stand for God's universal sovereignty made us feel like we had a part in correcting all that is wrong in the world.

good points you guys

I don't know what made be buy the Universal Sovereignty argument for the permission of evil

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