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by Lionel_P_Hartley 41 Replies latest watchtower scandals

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  expatbrit

  Nassau:

  If a Catholic sexually molest or murders his own children, nobody will say that the Priest is guilty, or that, the entire Catholic Church should be condemned, because it could not prevent this conduct from one Catholic follower.

  This is a blanket statement. Surely in reality, the level of responsibility and condemnation will vary in each individual case, based upon the level of awareness and knowledge (and subsequent action or inaction) that the Catholic priest and hierarchy has of that case. In fact, the Catholic church has rightly been held responsible and widely condemned for it's mishandling of child abuse, and it's failing to prevent further abuse by perpetrators.

  Secondly, the idea that the entire Catholic church is condemned because of the actions of it's adherents is one that the Watchtower has constantly promoted for decades. I for one find it only just that the Watchtower should be held to the standards it applies to others. I find it enormously telling that the Watchtower so obviously fails to meet that test.

  Expatbrit
• 

  Nassau

  Expatbrit said:
  "In fact, the Catholic church has rightly been held responsible and widely condemned for it's mishandling of child abuse, and it's failing to prevent further abuse by perpetrators".
  C - Can you give us a specific single example of it, Expatbrit?

  Expatbrit said:
  "I for one find it only just that the Watchtower should be held to the standards it applies to others"
  C - You mean that, the Catholic Church does not even have moral standards to be applied, as most of his members do not show it?
  Show me one single book, magazine, leaflet, that shows us that the WTS does not defend or promoted high standards of moral among JWs!

  Expatbrit said:
  "I find it enormously telling that the Watchtower so obviously fails to meet that test."
  C - Where was the test for the Catholic Church during, verbi gratia, the terrible killings in Iberian Peninsula during the "Inquisição" and during I and II world war when they blessed the weaponry?
  It is difficult to discuss any subject with people with preconception about a religion.
  Nassau (a free citizen without the glasses of religion)
• 

  AlanF

  Nassau, your posts consist almost exclusively of fuzzy, emotion-filled silliness. Rather than point this out line by line, I'll focus on one good example of your poor reasoning:

  : If a Catholic sexually molest or murders his own children, nobody will say that the Priest is guilty, or that, the entire Catholic Church should be condemned, because it could not prevent this conduct from one Catholic follower. Why should we condemn all JW Organisation by one nasty conduct?

  No one is saying that the JW organization should be condemned for the actions of a single Witness. If you think anyone is, then give some examples.

  What is generally being said is that certain JW leaders should be held responsible for failing to put in place until very recently policies that protect children from sexual predators. For many years the focus of these leaders was to protect the name of the JW organization at all costs. If this meant coverning up molestation, that was fine. If it meant failing to give justice to a victim so as to protect some prominent JW from criminal prosecution, that was fine. The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses have created an organizational mindset that tells JWs, "protect Jehovah's name at all costs". Only by going beyond the bare minimum requirements of the law in each state or country can this long-established mindset be overturned and replaced by one where protecting children is given priority. It took many, many criminal prosecutions to force the Catholic Church into doing this, and it looks like the same will have to happen for JWs leaders to similarly clean up their act.

  Isolated cases, you say? Wrong! The Silentlambs website contains several hundred stories of mishandled molestation cases. This website is miniscule compared to the entire world. If a tiny bit of publicity can generate several hundred responses, what do you think will happen when national publicity is given to this matter? There will be thousands of cases appearing.

  You're obviously a typically blinded JW follower, Nassau. You're about to get an eyeful.

  AlanF
• 

  stephen Bates

  Dear Nassau,

  Thank you for your reply. I am sorry that I cannot conduct this debate in Dutch and praise your accomplishment in writing in English.
  I think you labour under a number of misapprehensions though. No journalist is exempt from criticism and I have never suggested that I should be an exception to this rule. I merely pointed out that no one had yet pointed out an error in what I have written about the JWs. Neither have you!
  You seem to think that writing about the Jehovah's Witnesses occupies all my time. Nothing could be further from the truth.They are very insignificant to me and scarcely an obsession of my newspaper. Of more than 200 of my articles in the Guardian last year just three were about the JWs - the year before the number was one.
  If you saw the Guardian (but why should you?) you would know that I have written highly critical articles about the Catholic church (many more than about the JWs!) and the Church of England and that, as LP Hartley pointed out earlier in this thread, at the end of last year I sued and won substantial financial damages from the Catholic Herald newspaper here, and a complete apology, for their questioning the integrity of my reporting. That was on a Catholic issue, by the way - when the church forced the resignation of the archbishop of Wales for shielding two paedophile priests. Do the JWs do that to their elders, do you know?
  My colleagues here have also written critically of other religions: our Delhi correspondent had a harrowing 2,000 word article about the caste-killing of two young lovers by Hindu relatives a few months ago and others have provided several columns and articles critical of the Muslim treatment of women in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
  In the Catholic church in England and Wales there have been 21 convictions of priests (out of a total of 5,000 priests) in relation to sexual offences in recent years. No religion is exempt from this sort of thing and no one believes that its adherents are perfect, or that when they stray it is the religion that is at fault. But I just look at the difference in response between the RCs and the JWs on this terrible issue.
  The Catholic church here did not blame others but set up an independent inquiry to recommend how the church should deal with the problem and has said it will implement all its 83 draconian recommendations immediately. These include vetting of all appointments (including consulting police and local authority records), appointment of surveillance staff in every parish and diocese, annual reports and the establishment of an independent national office to investigate complaints and aid victims. The church has apologised and paid compensation to all victims and promised to investigate any further complaints.
  The JWs as I understand it decline to acknowledge there might be any problem and, like you, accuse anyone who criticises as being motivated by malignity towards the religion itself, rather than malefactors within it. I know where I'd rather be in this instance!
  I apologise for saying your appreciation of Northern Ireland was ignorant rather than misinformed, but I can't be responsible for where you get your information or what colleagues on other newspapers write. I did, if you noticed, point out an example of ignorance in your assertion about the "Protestant" church - there are several varieties there.
  Now I really think this correspondence must be boring to other people and really should stop.

  Best wishes, Nassau,

  Stephen Bates
• 

  expatbrit

  Nassau:

  Stephen Bates has provided examples of the Catholic Church being held responsible. Here is an example: http://www.prevent-abuse-now.com/law2ab.htm#Kos

  Expatbrit said:
  "I for one find it only just that the Watchtower should be held to the standards it applies to others"
  C - You mean that, the Catholic Church does not even have moral standards to be applied, as most of his members do not show it?

  No, I mean that the Watchtower should uphold the same standards by which it measures others. Anything less is hypocrisy. Your statement that most Catholics do not show moral standards is entirely subjective and your opinion only.

  The test for the Catholic Church during the inquisition and the world wars was exactly the same. Did they practice what they preached? They failed that test, as (in my opinion) do all religions.

  Expatbrit
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  Nassau

  Dear AlanF,
  I must say that I agree with all your arguments. Good point!
  But, do you have the right to speak with people in this terms: "You're obviously a typically blinded JW follower, Nassau. You're about to get an eyeful".
  Who are you, AlanF? Holder of the Supreme Truth? A Blinded non-believer?
  Behave yourselves gentlemen. We are not here to offend people. I am not here to OFFEND OR DEFEND Catholics, Protestants, JWs, or anyone.
  IF YOU CONTINUE LIKE THIS, YOU ARE NOT BETTER THAN THE JEHOVAH WITNESSES, the ones you blame and attack. Otherwise, you are the blind.
  Do you want to continue to discuss the matters or to get into continuing offenses and bloody stupid nonsense monologues.
  Get serious!
• 

  biblexaminer

  Bravo! This thread is very, very interesting. I want to express my appreciation to Stephen Bates ofr his consistantly fine way of writing. And humor!... Dutch... go on!

  As a thinking person, and I am sure there are many like me who have followed this thread, I find this kind of discussion most revealing. The facts come out from both sides. Those who reveal the hard hitting truth about the WTS failings and hypocrisy, and also the truth about the blind defensiveness offered by the few WTS supporters who refuse to acknowledge the facts.

  The fact is, the WTS is just being held to it's own judgement. This is fine and typical of "God's Kingdom", as Jesus our KING made it clear that "How you are judging out, you also shall be judged".

  I hope the Governing Body appreciates how well the "Kingdom" is working.
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  Nassau

  Dear Stephen Bates,
  I would like to thank you for your reply and for the time you took to answer and comment my post.
  I do appreciate your job like journalist, specially for exposing the hypocrisy of the WTS on the NGO scandal. However, You might agree with me that, when we have a different religion, it is difficult to maintain a strict neutral position about what we report. As Catholic, one tends to attack the religion itself because of the differences in doctrines! This is what I hate in people: INTOLERANCE. And the JWs are not the only ones, believe me. Religion, often, unfortunately transform people into religious warriors, worse than atheists.
  JWs, as a religion, have good and bad things, like your own religion, Mr. Bates. Have you ever written about the good things of the Jehovah Witnesses? I invite you to do so, Mr. Bates. Show that you are a fair person. Show what is wrong with them, but show also what they have done in some person's lives! Is it so difficult to find?
  Personally, I can find a lot of good things is the Catholic Religion. And I can not deny this fact - otherwise I will be the hypocrite one. We shall be careful: 'Do not judge the others...
  If we criticize one’s idea, we have to be prepared to replace it by another better one!
  So, Mr. Bates, do you have the courage to report the good deeds from JWs? I bet you have not!
  Because my native language is not English, I hope you can understand my dialogue.
  Please, accept my best regards.

  P.S. - Personally, I have a very touching, deep and interesting life experience with the religion of the JWs, that taught me and open my eyes for the real truth about religion. I could even write an interesting book about it, to help people to be free. I consider myself a lucky person, after had practiced this religion for 20 long years. But I am much happier to have left it by myself - without the influence of another religion. "I do not need another cane to walk" I am free to walk without the glasses of religion!
• 

  Lionel_P_Hartley

  Nassau,

  That's an interesting slant. You might, however, ask yourself this: what if you - or a loved one, say a child - had died for refusing blood say, at year 15, of your experiences with the JWs?

  The serious issues with the JW religion at this point range from being outright life or death issues to issues such as molestation which can have incredible lifelong consequences. Until the WTS straightens its house on these many issues it makes no sense to praise them. They will certainly receive much attention if they make an honest break with their past and resolve to use their organization to produce true good.

  LPH
• 

  outnfree

  Nassau wrote

  If we criticize one’s idea, we have to be prepared to replace it by another better one!

  Your Watchtower indoctrination is showing here, Nassau. For it is NOT true that to be able to see the flaw in someone's ideas or arguments we need to replace their idea or come up with a better argument.

  Your reasoning seems to me to be a variation of the old "but where would you go?" upon leaving the Witness religion implying that there IS no other religion to turn to. "Who else has 'the truth'?" As you have noted, you are now "free from religion." You needn't have sent any Jehovah's Witness any place else or offered them ANY alternative set of beliefs to be able to recognize that the Watch Tower Society is indeed a false prophet according to the Bible's own definition.

  outnfree

  It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden