generation overlap

by diamondiiz 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • diamondiiz
    diamondiiz

    Does it appear that the Feb 15, 2008 was setting jws for a future generation change?

    Can We Calculate the Length of “This Generation”?
    The word “generation” usually refers to people of various ages whose lives overlap during a particular time period or event. For example, Exodus 1:6 tells us: “Eventually Joseph died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.” Joseph and his brothers varied in age, but they shared a common experience during the same time period. Included in “that generation” were some of Joseph’s brothers who were born before him. Some of these outlived Joseph. (Gen. 50:24) Others of “that generation,” such as Benjamin, were born after Joseph was born and may have lived on after he died.
    So when the term “generation” is used with reference to people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated except that it does have an end and would not be excessively long. Therefore, by using the term “this generation,” as recorded at Matthew 24:34, Jesus did not give his disciples a formula to enable them to determine when “the last days” would end. Rather, Jesus went on to emphasize that they would not know “that day and hour.” - feb15, 2008 p21-25

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    It certainly looks that way! Good catch. I remember that paragraph now - it was in a box, wasn't it?

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    Firstly, "the term 'generation' as used by Jesus [at Matthew 24:34] refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics." (wt95 11/1, p. 17, ¶6) Secondly, Jesus compared the generation in his day to the one in Noah's day at [Matthew 24:37-39], it seems clear that the people in Noah's generation paralleled the people in "this generation" which began when the sign of Jesus' second coming became manifest in the year 1914. (I would take note the use of the word "this generation" as they are used at Genesis 7:1.] Thirdly, even if we should be able to determine when "this generation" began, we would still be unable to calculate when "this generation" would come to an end since no one knows the "day and hour."

    Having said this, should we give consideration to what Exodus 1:6 says regarding the death of Joseph, Jacob's/Israel's son, "and also all his brothers and all that generation," then based on how old Joseph was when he died -- 110 -- then his contemporaries would have been "all [of] his brothers and Joseph's two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, who were both living when their father died. Now looking at the dates, Jacob at age 84 marries both Leah and Rachel in 1774 BC (after his uncle Laban does a bait and switch) so that his 11th son, Joseph, is finally born to Rachel in 1767 BC. (Rachel dies when Benjamin, Jacob's most beloved son, is born some six years later in 1761 BC.) Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous to the "sign" in 1914 would correspond to Joseph's birth and Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died would also have been contemporaries of Joseph.

    Since the separation of sheep from goats doesn't begin until "immediately after" the great tribulation (Matthew 24:29), and Jesus specifically stated at Matthew 24:34 'this generation would not pass away until all these things [that Jesus mentions in Matthew 24 and 25] have occurred,' including the tribulation, then it would seem that just as Joseph's contemporaries were still living when Joseph died, then some of Jesus spiritual brothers would still be alive after the tribulation.

    The fact that our current year of 2010 is 96 years removed from the year 1914 does not help one do any more than speculate as to the year when the end will come, for we arrive at the year 2024 when counting 110 years forward from 1914 and the Bible is silent as to when Manasseh and Ephraim, who were born in Egypt, but were contemporaries of their father, died.

    Now trying to prove Jesus' wrong when he indicated that no man knows "that day or the hour" is such a ridiculous exercise as trying the calculate the year when "the end will come," but it'll come when the good news will have been [satisfactorily] preached in all the earth, which is something that Jesus also said (Matthew 24:14), for if Jesus did know 'the day or hour' when he said this, why would he have lied?

    Berating spiritual-minded members of the GB or other Christians for doing what they can to encourage Christians to stay awake and keep them from going to sleep when they need to be vigilant with a view to prayer is evidently the preoccupation of some, but remember just as the Law appointed men having weakness as high priests (Hebrews 7:28), Jehovah uses men today that are just as imperfect, who may at times have gotten it wrong and might even have said some zany things they we might wish they did not say. But most of us here know more of what things the Bible teaches that most the truth because of the work of such dedicated "men," both past and present, including Jesus, including Paul, that have been doing their best to 'keep watch over our souls.' (Hebrews 13:17)

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    dgeggnog welcome, and do you by any chance write any of the publications - the above post sounded very 'Watchtowery'?

    Those of Jesus' spiritual "brothers" that were alive contemporaneous to the "sign" in 1914 would correspond to Joseph's birth and Joseph's two sons that were alive when Joseph died would also have been contemporaries of Joseph.

    That's the problem. Joseph may have been a contemporary of his sons but he was not the same generation as his sons. With the 1914 onwards era there are, in reality, 2 generations the WTS/GB is putting forward - the 1914 generation (who 'saw the sign') and aren't around at Armageddon, and the Armageddon generation who weren't around in 1914 - whereas Jesus said there would be one generation that would see "all these things happening," not just some of these things happening.

    ---

    Came across this. People might find this interesting and I'm guessing the WTS/GB had this in mind when promoting the new 'overlapping' idea and enlarging the generally accepted timespan of a 'generation':

    "The Hebrews, like ourselves, appear to have reckoned a generation at from thirty to forty years (see Job 42:16); but, from the longevity of the patriarchs, in their time it was reckoned at a hundred (Gen. 15:16 comp. verse 14, and Ex. 12:40); and in like manner amongst the Romans, the word seculum originally signified a generation, and was afterwards applied to a century, see Censorinus De Die Natali, cap. xvii."

    http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/Gesenius/ (p.194)

    Comments?

  • designs
    designs

    Watchtower writing lessons: How to paint yourself in and out of corners

  • coffee_black
    coffee_black

    Thirdly, even if we should be able to determine when "this generation" began, we would still be unable to calculate when "this generation" would come to an end since no one knows the "day and hour."

    I remember the 1974 District Assembly, when during a talk about how close we were to armageddon, it was stated that "This was not the time to be toying with Jesus' words that no man knows the day or the hour.

    I guess it's ok to toy with those words now...

    Coffee

  • blondie
    blondie

    (Matthew 24:32-44) 32 "Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU, when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors. 34 Truly I say to YOU that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away. 36 "Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned; 41 two women will be grinding at the hand mill: one will be taken along and the other be abandoned. 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming. 43 "But know one thing, that if the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account YOU too prove yourselves ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think to be it, the Son of man is coming.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Even during the 1966 to 1975 era, jws always forgot verse 44, that at an hour that YOU DO NOT THINK IT TO BE.....which ruled out 1975 because it was what they thought it would be.

    as well as

    (Luke 12:40) 40 YOU also, keep ready, because at an hour that YOU do not think likely the Son of man is coming."

    AT AN HOUR THAT YOU DO NOT THINK LIKELY

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    It seems to me that the only way I would discuss this with a witness is in a historical context:

    Early on, the WT thought the generation was the anointed brothers of Jesus; then it was the wicked generation who saw the sign, 70 or 80 years was the rule applied; then it was an undetermined amount of time, then it was the anointed only, and now, overlapping generations of anointed only.

    The only way to maybe get through the haze of WT speak is a historical take, that it changed SO MANY times. That is the story; NOT Joseph is Jesus, or how long, or who.

    P

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    It seems to me that the only way I would discuss this with a witness is in a historical context:

    Early on, the WT thought the generation was the anointed brothers of Jesus; then it was the wicked generation who saw the sign, 70 or 80 years was the rule applied; then it was an undetermined amount of time, then it was the anointed only, and now, overlapping generations of anointed only.

    The only way to maybe get through the haze of WT speak is a historical take, that it changed SO MANY times. That is the story; NOT Joseph is Jesus, or how long, or who.

    P

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    When we are given an outline for a talk, we do not read from it verbatim, repeating what it say word for word, as was the case during the 1974 District Assembly. Now back in 1958, for example, Knorr delivered the discourse, "God's Kingdom Rules - Is The World's End Near," at the Divine Will Convention held at Yankee Stadium, which, being an international assemblage, was also broadcast at the Polo Grounds, which was reproduced in the Watchtower (w58 10/15, p. 625), and while Knorr may have attempted to deliver this keynote address word for word, he was unsuccessful in doing so. (It's not that I have such a great memory, but I have the recording, and at the time I was reading the text of it as I listened to it.)

    The only point I really wanted to make here is one I made before: The Law appointed men having weakness as high priests (Hebrews 7:28), and today is no different; Jehovah continues to use imperfect men to get His will accomplished, for they are being used to gather the things on the earth together that will form the nucleus of the new world society. I like this phrase, "the new world society," even though it is one that is hardly used today, and even though some of these imperfect men may have embellished (and did embellish!) a few of these outlines and began to preach their own gospel, which encouraged certain behavior that began before 1975 (and which led to many folks leaving us for a time after 1975 until some thankfully regained their senses and returned!), folks need to take a right viewpoint, and stop all the craziness: Jesus said no one knows the "day and hour." Forget about applying the Joseph analogy to a timeline. I didn't believe Armageddon was coming in 1975, but it's true that many of my "contemporaries" <smile> in those days felt this way, and so what?

    Look, there is no "1914 generation" and no "Armageddon generation"; there is but one "anointed generation" -- "this generation" of folks that lived contemporaneous to when the composite "sign" that Jesus provides in Matthew 24 and 25; Mark 13 and Luke 21 appeared in 1914, and many of the people in this generation will still be alive after the great tribulation and "will by no means pass away until all these things occur," so these anointed ones will live to see the end of this wicked system of things. That is what "the man" said, and no one has "sayings of everlasting life," so why shouldn't we listen to this Holy One of God? (Compare John 19:5; 6:68)

    Hopefully this explanation will convince some here to stop expecting perfection from imperfect human beings, to stop expecting imperfect people to be able to bridle their bodies when it is not natural for any sinful human to want to be obedient to themselves (Romans 7:15), let alone to God, for no one wants a bridle in their mouth (James 3:2, 3). After the Millennial Reign of Christ, obedience will then come naturally to us.

    Thanks for the welcome, AnnOMaly. Yugoslavia, huh? Your nick sounds Irish <g>).

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