The Significance of Raymond Victor Franz

by AllTimeJeff 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • ESTEE
    ESTEE

    Maybe we can start a new section called Tributes

    Just my two cents..

    ESTEE

  • snowbird
    snowbird

    Great idea!

    Syl

  • crazyblondeb
    crazyblondeb

    I'm sure Lady Lee can do something about threads, for Ray...just pm her and ask.

  • Dogpatch
    Dogpatch

    I cast you OUT oh Canadian demon! BASHALA SINMATA CHARIATA (tongues with a Manhattan Beach accent - though the familiar spirits are different)

    R

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Some have commented on the unique intersection of circumstances that led to Franz's leaving and the subsequent publication of Crisis of Conscience.

    To wit: Franz had disagreed for sometime with the lack of use or even interest in what the bible said, esp if it contradicted traditional WT teachings. Also remember that in 1976, the committee format took hold. From Russell through 1975, one man was essentially in charge. It is clear to me that since 1976, the Governing Body took itself (too) seriously on the enforcement of their authority. This crystalized when Franz became an issue to them.

    Not satisfied with merely kicking him off the body, they were convinced that he needed to go. Period. What an utter lack of imagination the GB showed, and how much they underestimated him. If they had handled him more respectfully, there is a possibility that CoC would never have been published, or perhaps if it were, would have had a much different tone. Instead, the GB insisted on their authority, that it trumped all else.

    Franz knew and saw the goofiness, and how they played fast and loose with chronology and prophecy. He knew of the cynicism from which came their arrogance about changing those dates, or (heaven forbid) admit they were wrong.

    But without an authoratative viewpoint, and eyewitness insider, much of this would have stayed below the surface like a festering wound that was painful but barely noticeable.

    Most of all, CoC reveals to me the fundamental tactical weakness of the Governing Body as a whole: They really do believe their own bullshit. They know they are wrong about the prophecies. They even express those doubts. Yet, they still really do think that Jehovah and Jesus use them, that they are one of 144,000 Christians who have lived since the first century who will rule with Christ in heaven. Having gone to Gilead, I can tell you that the GB still suffers from the same delusions today.

    They really believe that Jehovah uses them, that the GB really is special. It is the only way they can justify their own power while at the same time knowing that they don't get anything right on the ol chronology/prophecy front. And of course, from their point of view, it is for the good of the flock that this is generally kept from them, to make sure that more "positive" things are kept to the fore.

    It could stumble a lot of JW's to know about the dates, the UN collusion, et al.

    And without Ray Franz, little of this would be known, and perhaps many of us would still be a frustrated JW not knowing how to put 2+2 together on the cult.

    Randy, you didn't have to be his friend to be an ally for the same thing, that of real, honest truth.

  • believingxjw
    believingxjw

    AllTimeJeff,

    I admire Ray just as must as anyone here but I believe he would have wanted us to speak the truth. You said, "Why would a man in his 50's resign his leadership position (though not leave the religion)? It was over principle. It was over what was right."

    In COC Ray wrote, " That afternoon Chairman Schroeder brought the Governing Body's decision to me. Evidently those seeking disfellowshiping had not attained a two-thirds majority, for he simply informed me that I was being asked to resign from the Body and also as a member of the headquarters staff...."

    Next paragraph, "I wrote out my resignation..." COC, page 332

    Ray resigned because he was asked to resign.

    Ray continued to attend meetings after he left Bethel. The elders in his congregation even considered appointing him elder.

    I believe we should be just as honest about things as we ask the JWs to be.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    First of all, he was asked to resign. Secondly, earlier in the book, and as verified by those around him back then, Ray had made it known that he was looking to leave. As you may recall, he was in Alabama when he was called back to the GB witch hunt.

    I welcome your attempted technicality. However, he was preparing to leave on his terms, over the principles that the book Crisis of Conscience was written over.

    The fact that he was forced to resign doesn't change that 1) He did resign and 2) It was over principle.

    Why do you think he took a leave of absence to Alabama and was called back? Because he was getting ready to resign, over principle. He was called back due to the witch hunt.

    And to be clear, I didn't say he resigned as a JW, but as a member of the GB.

    While this is an internet forum, and thus you can say what you feel, which I respect your right to do, I have to tell you in the same spirit that I don't appreciate what I perceive as an attempt to discredit what I wrote, which was 100% true and honest. In my opinion, you were/are looking to manufacture a controversy where none exists.

    Other then that, you hit it right on the head.

  • believingxjw
    believingxjw

    AllTimeJeff,

    " In my opinion, you were/are looking to manufacture a controversy where none exists.

    Other then that, you hit it right on the head."

    I was just trying to keep the conversation on what Ray actually said and not what we think he said. Your words above are contradictory by the way. I "hit it right on the head" because it's what Ray said. I was not trying to manufacture anything. That's the problem here sometimes, if someone disagrees with what is said they are put down and sad to say sometimes it's not really all that different from what happens in the Watchtower. I know, I experienced for myself when I disassociated.

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    believingxjw

    Huh? I allowed you your say and gave you mine. No harm, no foul, no shepherding calls, judicial committees, or announcements from the platform. You haven't changed anything, but you have had your say. Are you good with that?

    You also need to adjust your telemetry for sarcasm.

    Other then that, you hit it right on the head again. Keep up the good work!

  • AllTimeJeff
    AllTimeJeff

    Lets just clarify a couple of things.

    Is anyone denying that Ray Franz resigned?

    Is anyone denying that Ray Franz had already made up his mind to leave and was in fact, getting ready to do just that while the GB tried to disfellowship him in a witch hunt?

    Was his leaving the Governing Body done over principle?

    Discuss.

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