by GoldDustWoman 27 Replies latest jw friends

  • cellomould


    These are great comments!

    I am all for courtesy, or civility, as you say. Courtesy doesn't mean one person behaving condescendingly over another. Nor does it mean one person subjecting their self to another.

    I must comment that in the 'liberated' gay community, there seems to be a deeply ingrained sense of gender roles still. If this sounds ridiculous, it is.

    But it is really true that one partner is considered 'male' and the other 'female'. And this is only based on DOMINANCE/SUBMISSION! I almost laughed my ass off when I heard one gay man refer to his partner as a 'good wife'!


    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

  • waiting

    Howdy Red,

    If someone's wrong, they're wrong. If they're not going to listen to my opinion, why should I waste my time trying to convince them? They're wrong, anyway.
    Well, that's the way I feel too! I can't help it if they don't accept my right opinion. They're still wrong. Duh.

    Why be disagreeable, when with a little effort you can be impossible. Douglas Woodruff

    Btw, do you take your horses out in the cold winters? Bundle up.


  • GoldDustWoman

    Thank you all for your further insights.


    I agree with you regarding the same standard of civility applies to men. Specifically, I hoped to point out that freedom from the WTS does not necessarily parallel with the amount of acerbity one can dish out. And even one might surmise that it is quite the opposite.


    (you realize that those initials could stand for another famous saying, don't you?
    Yes, I realize that after you pointed it out to me. I think that label has been applied to me a few times, actually. Especially, after my husband has discovered that I have used his razor to shave my legs
  • Prisca

    I posted this in another thread:

    It has never been wrong to be a lady, and it never will.

    To me, a lady means to be classy, feminine, yet does not allow people to take advantage of her. She knows who she is, yet does not walk over people to achieve her aims in life.

    Most of all, a lady is someone who people respect. Men and women alike.

  • larc


    I know that you know that I respect you. We go back a ways, and we always had mutual respect. Our respect was not based on gender. It was based on a mutual ability to communicate without rancor or incivility (sp).

    It is hard for me to fathom why people here get hung up on gender differences, status differences, racial differences, etc, etc, when all of us have left the mother ship and are heading for an island for self preservation. Oh, well.

  • Abaddon

    I think manners are useful, as much for their civilising effect as for the heads-up effect when one doesn't use manners.

    Given the fact that many men in the Borg use the headship doctrine to be assholes, it is completely understandable that many men and women carry residual problems as a result.

    Not only might someone behave like they were still a Dub (a man expecting a woman to show submission, a woman not confronting a man) BUT, importantly, a person may identify a pattern of behaviour in someone else that makes them feel like they are acting like they are still in the Borg, when in fact they may not be doing this, or might be unaware they are doing this.

    As far as the gay community goes, I actually find that the classic breeder preconceptions of a obviously 'male' and obviously 'female' partner in a gay relationship are largely unfounded. Maybe this is a difference between 'scene' homosexuals and 'non-scene' homosexuals, although obviously there are different 'scenes' within the gay community. Maybe it's the gay couples I know; unless owning a pick-up makes a girl butch I couldn't say without asking (and am not that interested to ask).

    So what might be often true in (for example), the BDSM gay community (where you're obviously gonna have Doms and subs, whatever their sex), for more 'mainstream' gays (and hets) is not always the case.

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • cellomould

    I thought that was silly too, Abaddon. Then one day I realized it was true. At least of the old gay men my roomate knows. They are at the 'domestic partenship' stage, however.

    But I think these few comments I heard simply state the obvious for the rest of us: Whenever two people meet for the first time, there is tension. People need to know where they stand, whether dominant or submissive.

    This tension never goes away in human relationships. It may not cause any problems, but it's always there.

    It doesn't matter how civil we are to each other, our animal brains still have a bit of 'lion pride' in them.

    I suppose we just have to learn to ignore it.

    cello, playing top fiddle

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

  • Amazing

    Hi GDW: Thanks for a great post. I found your style refreshing by using comments without identifying a particular poster. It forces more attention on the issue, than the person. Excellent!

    The reason I opened the thread and asked women what they felt and thought, was because I had not up to that time seen anyone ask. I sat back and read, and did not comment. My goal was not to discuss, just listen.

    I have admitted on this board prior to leaving, and I admit again that I may very well have some JW-isms left over, even after 10 years away from the religion. I may sound condescending or any number of other difficult qualities. And the way you put things makes it a lot easier for me to see where I can continue to improve. You help the issue stand out, and you don't cloud it with attacks and insults and sarcastic slams.

    Your point about how many women have burned the Watchtower bra, but choose not to get into people's faces is very well taken. These women are strong, and take their place being equals, and do not have to prove themselves. These are the women that any man, regardless of his JW background admire and learn from. Thanks again for taking the time to make such a wise and precise post. It helped me greatly.


  • teejay


    Excellent post. Excellent observations. Thanks.


  • Valentine

    When I said civility I was speaking of the manner in which some women still gush at the feet of condescending men here.Some women are comfortable in that nicey nice passive,oh how wonderful of you to say/so this' status quo role within the male construct of 'approved behavior'. These women are actually stereotypes of oppression to me.A noticeable pattern of behavior.

    And then some are not comfortable in that old traditional civil role.

    There is nothing wrong with being loud,assertive and aggressive at times. men do it all the time. Women do it and get labeled bitch or 'no class' from what Ive read in this thread.So So wrong.
    Women have gained many rights by their vocal loudeness and assertiveness. I choose not to play into that gushing at the feet patriarchal construct. And being liberated means you can say what you want when you want using the full range of emotions that go with whatever the issue may be.

    I consider myself quite a classy woman .I have nothing to prove to anyone. And am quite able and competant.I just dont buy into the patriarchal behavioral boundaries set for women for centuries.
    And If one doesnt like my style of communication,there is such a simple solution-dont read my posts.
    And all those sitting smugly on their pretty little ladylike (and heap big know-it-all manly men saddles)saddles,on those moral highhorses. How some see you sitting up there isnt all that complimentary.And women like me do not need your derision and approval. Have a nice day.Tina

    Todays Affirmation:
    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign that the conspiracy is working.

Share this