Adherence to FALSE TEACHINGS required of Jehovah's people: Scottish Court Case transcripts confirm

by Terry 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  dgp

  Marked
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  Terry

  Exactly - some of them were practically nostalgic over stuff like the old men of the old testament coming alive on earth in the 1920s, (looking around at conventions for people with beards), the "miracle wheat", and so on.

  I imagine those ancient worthies showing up at a District Convention would be asked to shave their beards off or face public reproof!
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  not a captive

  This is a good read for convention time.
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  debator

  Are you saying that as religious people in this time we will get Bible prophecy prediction completely correct without error at all? Despite the bible saying it is obscured?

  Did the jews get the messiah predictions correct?

  Did the apostles think from Jesus's words one of them was prophecied to live until Jesus's return? and did Jesus correct or condemn them for this?

  This transcript simply shows a confrontational scenario where franz is trying to deal with loaded questions from the position that we have to get prophecy correct from the start and will not make mistakes or need refining.

  Daniel 11:35
  Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

  This shows stumbling is predicted but Gods people will change when it is needed, allowing themselves to be corrected from mistakes or wrong understandings that will happen.

  2 Timothy 3:16
  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

  This scripture is pointless if we can get things right without need for constant reference to the bible if our understanding needs adjusting on subjects due to human imperfection.
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  not a captive

  You are absolutely right , debator. We stumble and bumble along. But not locked into a religion's stumbling and bumbling.

  But we are to learn from the scriptures themselves--not some interpolations by third party operatives.

  If you can be kicked out because you understand what the spirit of God tells you but your religion tells you you must keep telling a lie unless or until the Corporation changes your mind for you--I ask--Is that the truth that made me free?

  Maeve
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  debator

  Please don't put words in my mouth Captive.

  Yes actually I do think we are locked into gathering together as a religion or congregation. Otherwise you make the whole of the greek scriptures pointless and Jesus choosing oppostles who created the congregations and appointed elders, overseers, deacons etc for them. Paul's 25 books of instructions on how to guide and protect the flocks in all these congregations, is a waste of inspired words? If all you have to do is a give a nod to God and go on your way.

  1 Corinthians 14:26
  [ Orderly Worship ] What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

  We are told to teach and preach and gather together as a people. It is non-negotiable.

  Colossians 3:16
  Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God.

  And we have to be in agreement too.

  1 Corinthians 1:10
  [ Divisions in the Church ] I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.

  We have to be together as a people and using the bible for instruction, guidance and correction as it's needed. It will be needed according to Jesus and Paul for when we fall short and make mistakes from imperfection or needing greater understanding as we live through ever-unfolding prophetic times. Here is a familiar one that is overused but no less an instruction.

  Hebrews 10:25 (New International Version)

  25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

  You say we should use the scriptures but using the scriptures means listening to what they tell us to actually do! Would you agree with that?
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  not a captive

  Thank you debator for your civil discourse:

  Yes actually I do think we are locked into gathering together as a religion or congregation. Otherwise you make the whole of the greek scriptures pointless and Jesus choosing oppostles who created the congregations and appointed elders, overseers, deacons etc for them. Paul's 25 books of instructions on how to guide and protect the flocks in all these congregations, is a waste of inspired words? If all you have to do is a give a nod to God and go on your way.

  I deal with the scriptures even knowing that there is every reason to believe that they are not always God's word--they are sometimes a man's. Paul's books of instruction often note when he gives his opinion on a subject and God's word or spirit on it. This of course is the only way to accord with his remark at 2 Cor. 2:24: "Not that we are masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy, for it is by [your] faith that you are standing."

  Throughout 1 Cor. 7 Paul gives counsel on matters between men and women. He is very careful to let the reader know that he often gives his opinion on a matter.

  Verse 6 "However, I say this by way of concession, not by way of command."

  Then at verse 10: "To the married people I give instructions, yet not I but the Lord, that a wife should not depart...."

  And shortly after that at v. 12:"But to the others I say, yes, I, not the Lord..."

  Verse 25 says"Now, concerning virgins I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who had mercy shown to him by the Lord to be faithful."

  At last verse 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my opinion. I certainly think I also have God's spirit."

  Paul says at verses 17 and 25"as Jehovah has given each one a portion, let each one so walk as God has called him. And thus I ordain in all the congregations." "In whatever condition each one was called, brothers, let him remain in it associated with God."

  The tenor of all Pauls work is never coersive. He fight s the battle for relief from circumcision and then by way of concession lowers the doubter's threshold amon the Jews by circumcising Timothy.

  But Paul at 1 Cor. 1 makes a moving plea for unity among individual Christians and among congregations --not at all becoming doctrinaire--vv. 22,23 "For both the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; but we preach Christ impaled, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness."

  Every word of Jesus and the apostles describes the great and only evidence of the Holy Spirit's operation among the followers of Christ: their unity and love that is not born of Man. God is their father, Jesus is their brother. They will be a family. That is quite a bit more than a nod to God.
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  not a captive

  And in line with the topic--

  It is clear fthat neither Jesus and Paul would have cast out any person who had the good sense and Spirit not to follow a religion's variable opinions. If Paul treated the conscience and faith of his fellow believers so delicately then, why would it be different now?
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  debator

  Hello Captive

  Your points are good even If I don't agree with them.

  Yes in some places Paul allows his opinion to come into it. Giving us (on certain issues) some flexibility but after the words you highlight he says..."I certainly think I also have God's spirit" Showing that he knows he is spirit inspired even in his opinion.

  I do not see Pauls words as anything but spirit inspired. In early centuries his letters had more provenance than any bible book except maybe the gospels for being inspired. Pauls letters and the Gospels were fully accepted as Bible inspired works by all early scholars. I think once we allow the bible to be sliced up into parts we ignore or discard according to our personal preferences, that this is a mistake. Don't you think so?

  You recognise the flock arrangement and Unity but not it's actuality? Not seeing that the greek scriptures show functioning working congregations under a central group of older men and apostles and that we must imitate this?

  Acts 16:4
  As they traveled from town to town, they delivered the decisions reached by the apostles and elders in Jerusalem for the people to obey.

  Acts 15:4
  When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

  Paul did fight for the rights of the gentiles but he did adhere to the congregation arrangement by going to the older men and getting a group decision on it. He was himself an Apostle gifted by spirit inspiration and so someone in authority and so placed to be part of the decision making. This is not the norm for the individual members that were told to imitate and obey with understanding those in authority in the congregations above them.

  This is a point of contention with most modern Christians, whom prefer a self-regulated personal belief away from religions but I find that way too unbiblical for my taste to be honest.

  Your next point in line with the topic. you say.....

  It is clear fthat neither Jesus and Paul would have cast out any person who had the good sense and Spirit not to follow a religion's variable opinions. If Paul treated the conscience and faith of his fellow believers so delicately then, why would it be different now?

  I do not agree with this statement and more importanly the bible doesn't either.

  2 Thessalonians 3:6
  [ Warning Against Idleness ] In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keepaway from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us.

  Romans 16:17
  I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keepaway from them.

  This next one is even more absolute by Paul.

  2 Thessalonians 3:14
  If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he may feel ashamed.

  We may have to agree to disagree on this one but your points were interesting to read. Thank you.
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  Terry

  2 Timothy 3:16
  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

  This scripture is pointless if we can get things right without need for constant reference to the bible if our understanding needs adjusting on subjects due to human imperfection.

  This is semi-clever apologia. But, it fails.

  It fails because the SOURCE of divine instruction (God himself!) would have to ERR in the first place and need correcting (if your apologetic was accurate.)

  Clearly what is being "corrected" is not scripture, teaching or revealed truth. What is in need of correcting is a person and that person's moral error.

  The human imperfection argument is a two-edged sword, my friend!

  If God won't allow imperfection, impurity or corruption tainting his perfect standard--why in the world would he ever transmit perfection THROUGH imperfection in the first place?

  And here is the worst part: Who corrects the error if not the SAME IMPERFECT HUMANITY that got it wrong in the first place!!

  A pig's tail isn't ever going to be straight no matter how you argue it.