FASCINATING debate: do we actually know what JESUS taught at all??

by Terry 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    In context to the era of human history, perhaps the Jesus god gave a more balanced humanistic viewpoint into the spiritual world

    for that particular ancient civilization, a needed resolve from past gods who were mostly violent and inhumane.

    In the Roman empire the families who had lost sons, brothers and husbands in battle must have been staggeringly large.

    Any message that seemed to proclaim: "There is a new ruler who will bring an end to war and he is coming very soon!" was a welcomed message.

    The Apocalyptic End Times warnings got the word-of-mouth Jesus story going like wildfire.

    The destruction of Jerusalem must have galvanized tens of thousands to accept the end of the world was already begun.

    By the time the first wave of believers realized the End had NOT come the neo-christianity had a firm hold on the population at large.

    That is when the leadership from Rome stepped in and created an orthodoxy.

  • Mall Cop
    Mall Cop

    When we come to the conclusion that the Bible is a historical document written by men and that many errors from copyist's are in it, we then need to move on to another subject that needs some conclusion also. That subject would be God.

    There is no way to prove the existence of God, we have belief systems, many based on the Bible which we have concluded is not from God.

    Therefore, without ones very personal experience concerning contact with God, what are we left with?

    As the beatles sang " Let it Be." There will be an answer, let it be.

    I think that I can stop researching, but, continue to read on these subjects and then just let it be.

    Really, who knows and has the truth on these matters .What each one believes and does not believe, lies with that one.

    Death is certaint, what follows is uncertain.

    Blueblades

  • Terry
    Terry

    Our sense of who we are as a person is our "self".

    It has a location. Usually behind our eyes.

    When we project that sense of consciousness outward it becomes possible to exteriorize.

    Our inward sense of self can dialogue with the outward sense of self.

    Little children do it all the time. They talk to their teddy bear or dolly.

    There is a separateness and an "other".

    Do you ever find yourself talking to yourself as though two different conscious entities were in dialogue?

    It is one of the quirky parts of our mind; we can mock up a simulacrum and give it a name and secret identity.

    When you pray you are really talking to your self.....an ideal self you've name Allah, Jehovah, Thor, Goober---whatever.

    The best and the worst of you is in that projection you're talking to because it is you in a superhero/villain outfit.

    Good people have a good invisible friend in the sky and bad people have a mean one.

    In the final analysis you discover your self through a kind of mock-up or model which you've exteriorized and put in control of the universe.

    Examine it carefully; you'll learn a lot about who you really are!

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    bump

  • Terry
    Terry

    The kernal of "nice" comes through in Jesus' (attributed) sayings.

    Maybe he is there.

    The shepherd who reaches for the lost sheep is a strong brand.

    Is the secret to Jesus' appeal that it is the divine approaching US first and accepting what we are at that moment without

    all those crossed T's and dotted I's having to pass muster?

    All the rest is muddle and tap dancing.

  • moshe
    moshe

    Well, the existing establishment did reject Jesus as a messiah. His miracles were investigated, but still the establishment saw only a extremist reformer, not a messiah. He was arrested and investigated and nothing special was observed, just another messianic radical. He was executed and as far as anyone knows, he is dead and has never come back. When Jesus could have revealed some really good prophecies to prove he was sent by God, he decided to tell us that their are "many rooms" up in heaven. Wow, thanks God, mankind needed to know that. Seriously, did Jesus say anything that only God could know and has since been proven right?

    Jesus should have known that Oetzi, the iceman mummy had been buried in ice on top of a mountain less than 2000 miles away from Jerusalem and it happened before the alleged flood of Noah. Jesus apparently didn't know that a global flood never happened. God would have known better. Maybe those penthouse suites in heaven were in his imagination, too.

  • wobble
    wobble

    Good points Moshe,

    I had never thought of the Authorities examining the claims about jesus and finding such claims wanting, as anything more than they did not want to believe, whereas it could be that they were false.

    As I said in my previous post, and expanded on in my thread about the Matt. gospel, we cannot know what Jesus actually said, any or all of the sayings we have now could be invented and or redacted.

    What I would love to happen is for the "Q" document , which is proposed as a source (Q from the German word for source) for the gospel sayings, at least many of them, to be found.

    This would simply be a document recording the sayings of Jesus with no other motive, hopefully, than to preserve and spread them.

    He must have been a profound soothsayer to gain the following he did, the sayings would probably be of great value today.

  • debator
    debator

    Was Jesus talking to people that doubted the existence of God? and the validity of the bible? Or even that there would be a messiah?

    Your asking Jesus to give you answers to the argument that he was a man, that he existed, when he was actually a man and existing.

    How could jesus answer questions to you when he was talking to a group that challenged him on other issues and answering those not you?

    People ask for an extraordinary proof from the bible that they expect from no other source. How do we know about any historical figure? how do we know about Plato, Henry the 8th, Julius Caesar? How do we know any historical event happened? They are documented and written about just the same as Jesus and the bible are documented and written about but believed more.

    We accept as fact many other historical events and people, that have a lot less proof and testimony about them than the bible and Jesus does.

    The Bible is very unusual because many of it's events/people have been corroborated by secular sources included archaeology and other writers.

    Today we have a weird situation were you will get doubters saying "okay I have to accept it is correct on that bit because it has been proven historically but this bit were they haven't found a secular evidence yet to support it, I can still deny openly." With no other written document will you get parts fully accepted and other parts totally denied still.

  • dgp
    dgp

    It's relevant here to say that even those who believed in Jesus in early Christianity didn't all believe the same thing. I would have expected them to be closer to being in the know, since Jesus' death was closer in time to them than to us.

    Let's see what Ehrman says in Lost Christianities, the Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew:

    "The wide diversity of early Christianity may be seen above all in the theological beliefs embraced by people who understood themselves to be followers of Jesus. In the second and third centuries there were, or course, Christians who believed in one God. But there were others who insisted that there were two. Some said that there were thirty. Others claimed there were 365.

    In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that God had created the world. But others believed that this world had been created by a subordinate, ignorant divinity (why else would the wolrld be filled with such misery and hardship?). Yet other Christians thought it was worse than that, that this world was a cosmic mistake created by a malevolent divinity as a place of imprisonment, to trap humans and subject them to pain and suffering.

    In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that the Jewish Scripture (the Christian "Old Testament") was inspired by the one true God. Others believed it was inspired by the God of the Jews, who was not the one true God. Others believed it was inspired by an evil deity. Others believed it was not inspired.

    In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that Jesus was both divine and human, God and man. There were other Christians who argued that he was completely divine and not human at all (For them, divinity and humanity were incommesurable entities: God can no more be a man than a man can be a rock.) There were others who insisted that Jesus was a full flesh-and-blood human, adopted by God to be his son but not himself divine. There were yet other Christians who claimed that Jesus Christ was two things: a full flesh-and-blood human, Jesus, and a fully divine being, Christ, who had temporarily inhabited Jesus' body during his ministry and left him prior to his death, inspiring his teachings and miracles but avoiding the suffering in its aftermath.

    In the second and third centuries there were Christians who believed that Jesus' death brought about the salvation of the world. There were other Christians who thought that Jesus' death had nothing to do with the salvation of the world. There were yet other Christians who said that Jesus never died.

    How could some of these views even be considered Christian? Or to put the question differently, how could people who considered themselves Christians hold such views? Why did they not consult their Scriptures to see that there were not 365 gods, or that the true God had created the world, or that Jesus had died? Why didn't they just read the New Testament?

    It is because there was no New Testament. To be sure, the books that were eventually collected into the New Testament had been written by the second century. But they had not yet been gathered into a widely recognized and authoritative canon of Scripture. And there were other books written as well, with equally impressive pedigress - other Gospels, Acts, Epistles, and Apocalypses claiming to be written by the earthly apostles of Jesus".

    end of quote.

    the terrible thing here is, can we believe that there were books written for the purpose of defending the views that the writer already held, but not necessarily for the purpose of telling the truth? YES. And the more orthodox defenders of the Canon would equally say that some of the books supposedly written by apostles were not written by them at all, as in the Acts of Peter, for example.

    I believe that we do not have a way to know who wrote what and why. We don't know who changed what, when, or why.

  • debator
    debator

    We can do what Jehovah's witnesses have done... that is, take the earliest examples of translations available. Take what the majority agree on and also use what the original understanding of words from the actual languages they were written in were and not later dogma driven meanings that are not original to the source languages. Then look what the Bible says as a fluent whole rather than cherry pick what you like and contradict what you don't.

    Most people don't argue bible texts but rather they argue the dogma put onto the bible texts.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit