Question regarding Jesus the Judge, Jehovah the judge.. serious replies please

by callitquits76 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    It really doesn't have to come down to the Trinity, which is like Tec mentioned, Man's way of trying to understand and descrieb God's nature ( a feat in of itself !!).

    Jesus is the son of God and in him lies all the qualities of God that Jesus needs to have, Jesus is co-equal to God when he needs to be ( Judge and lord and saviour) and he is all that God is when he needs to be and God works through him because of this.

    You can't have God without Jesus nor Jesus without God.

    As for the HS, the HS is the Spirit of God AND Jesus and itis the guding force for ALL christians and because it has ALL the qualities of God and Jesus, just like our spirit has all our qualities, if is THEM.

    We need to remember one little thing:

    If Jesus was NOT God ( for all intents and purposes) NONE of his claims are worth anything, he couldn't forgive sins or judge or save or any of that.

    God poured his essence into the person of Jesus so that, as fellow humans, we could truly understand God for in his Son we have all that WE ARE and all that GOD IS.

    Think about that, Jesus is what we all strive to be, we God askes and wants us to be.

  • mindmelda
    mindmelda

    Well if by "golden calf" you mean Jesus makes God more understandable and accessible to humans, okay.

    I always say that I find Christ the most evolved expression of God that I know of, at least so far. He epitomizes what many humans would like to be in many ways, and can aspire to be.

    If God is like Christ is purported to be, I can completely get behind that.

    If he's that almost perpetually pissed off at us god in the OT, eh...not so much.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Mindmelda,

    The whole point of Jesus was to make God more accessible, more attainable, more relatable, to Man and that only makes sense if Jesus is God.

    See, Christainiy is unique because, whereas other faiths say do this to get to God, we say, don't, it won't happen, its impossible.

    So Since you can't come up here to God, God will come down to you in his son Jesus Christ.

    God lowered himself to Us because we can never raise ourselves to God.

    Jesus is that God and that is why we can relate to him so well, because only God could become "man enough" for use to understand God.

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Something that may seem too common place in this is the complexity of the Trinitarian particulars. When I read the Bible I find the timetable for Gentile conversion just doesn't fit the tutorials given by early church Fathers of the fourth century. They give the story of Jesus coming ,sent by his Father and dying to reconcile us to God. Believers got baptized without a Trinity indoctrination ever written in the accounts throughout the entire NT.

    I read the gospel for the first time ias an adult the winter of 1979. I didn't live near any churches, preachers, telephones, radios, TV sets. I prayed to God and in the name of the Jesus that I came to know in an old KJ bible became a Christian as far as I knew. That summer I got baptized in the river at the foot of our mountain.

    Though I had been a baptized Catholic from infancy I never had grappled with the Trinity. At a little unafiliated vacation Bible school down the road a woman looked at me incredulously when she heard me tell a tiny girl that Jesus was God. "No he's not" she said. And I realized that I had nothing I could say to defend my Catholic indoctrination. I was unconnected to my reading of the Bible as it apparently was unconnected to this woman.

    So I am not satisfied with the terms of this discussion so far. I launched my own examination of the matter independent of the Witness's take on it. For myself it seems interesting that God made sure that the gospel was written in a Greek that had NO CAPITAL LETTERS. Using a capital letter now in the modern translations are an unnecessy interjection, an almost arbitrary designation. I have to trust the translators too much. I note that the same theologians who created the Trinity Dogma also began the formulation for the "Just War" theory (one being Augustine of Hippo). This does not recommend their reasoning nor suggest Holy Spirit hovered very close to their hearts and minds.

    And this matter has very much to do with the judging at least in this regard: whether or not it is Jehovah or Jesus that wears the judge's robe for me it is ever so much more important to be found obedient to the good news regardless.

    How can we say we love God whom we cannot see if we hate our brother whom we can see. This doctrine is very simple. I get it.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The key to undertsanding Jesus's nature ( Is he God?) is how he is described by John and Paul, He is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

    Begotten is the key, he was NOT created, God Beget him, ie: He gave "birth" to Jesus.

    When we, as humans, beget another human, what do we have? A HUMAN with their oen distinct persona, but a human nevertheless.

    Jesus was begotten from God and waht is GOD? God as such, what is Jesus then? God.

    Remember, God is not a name, but a "quality", A "state" an "essence" and in Jesus, the exact form of God exists in fullness.

    Jesus can't be "a god" though because there is only ONE God and no lesser God(s), Jesus could NOT forgive the sins of others nor be our Saviour Nor be our Judge unless he was God.

    So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is God, the Son, the full representation of all that God is in essence and distinct in his personality.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Begotten does not mean created.


    Monogeneses
    is translated (1) “only” in (1a) Lk 7:12 of the widow of Nain’s son; (1b) Lk 8:42 of Jairus’ daughter; (2) “only-begotten” (2a) of Jesus in Jn 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 Jn 4:9; (2) of Isaac in Heb 11:17; and (3) “only child” in Lk 9:38 of the devil-possessed child.

    (4) With reference to Christ, the phrase “the only begotten of (from) the Father,” Jn 1:14, indicates that as the Son of God He was the sole representative of the Being and character of the One who sent Him. (4a) In the original the definite article is omitted both before “only begotten” and before “Father,” and its absence in each case serves to lay stress upon the characteristics referred to in the terms used.

    (4b) The apostle’s object is to demonstrate what sort of glory it was that he and his fellow apostles had seen. (4c) That he is not merely making a comparison with earthly relationships is indicated by para, “from.” (4d) The glory was that of a unique relationship and the word “begotten” does not imply a beginning of His Sonship. (4e) It suggests relationship indeed, but must be distinguished from generation as applied to man.

    (5) We can only rightly understand the term “the only begotten” when used of the Son, in the sense of un-originated relationship. (5a) The begetting is not an event of time, however remote, but a fact irrespective of time. (5b) The Christ did not become, but necessarily and eternally is the Son. He, a Person, possesses every attribute of pure Godhood. (5c) This necessitates eternity, absolute being; in this respect He is not ‘after’ the Father;

    (8) In Jn 3:16 the statement, “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son” must not be taken to mean that Christ became the only begotten son by incarnation. (8a) The value and greatness of the gift lay in the Sonship of Him who was given. (8b) His Sonship was not the effect of His being given. (Strong and Vine’s, 167)

    Hebrews 1:5 also argues against the Jehovah's Witnesses’ “procreation definition” because “begotten” is used with reference to the enthronement of the existing Christ; an Old Testament parallel to Psalm 2:6-8.

    Lastly, even an English definition of “beget” as applied to Christ means to bring into a special relationship, and not by procreation.

    (10) Beget in English means to bring into a special relationship. The “be” is intensive and “get” means to bring to one’s self. Jesus, as “the only-begotten of the Father” means that even though he had the unique and equal relationship within the Trinity in eternity past, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh, dwelt among men, was tempted in all ways, yet without sin, submitted to the death on the cross, was raised on the third day, and ascended to the right hand of the Father. He was always uniquely related to the Father, but even more so now as He is the only unique Son of God, the only sacrifice to remove sins and restore fallen man to God.

    http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#32

  • not a captive
    not a captive

    Here is a thought: the Greek word from which this is translated, krino, has a selection of meanings that, though they are related they are not identical. So it would seem that there is no reason to demand an official meaning in every context. We do not have a Governing Body to rule on its meaning, friends.

    krino --- prop. to distinguish, i.e.decide (mentally or judicially); by impl. to try, condemn, punish:--avenge, conclude, condemn, damn, decree, determine, esteem, judge, go to (sue at the) law, ordain, call in question, sentence to, think.

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