Question regarding Jesus the Judge, Jehovah the judge.. serious replies please

by callitquits76 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Chalam

  Hello Loz,

  Herein lies the dilemma for me...these opposing arguments!! John 14 v 28 says 'the father is greater than I am'

  No problem with Jesus humbling Himself and becoming a servant, these explain all.

  Philippians 2:5-8 (New International Version)

  5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
  6 Who, being in very nature God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
  7 but made himself nothing,
  taking the very nature of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.
  8 And being found in appearance as a man,
  he humbled himself
  and became obedient to death—
  even death on a cross!

  I am serious ...please help if you can ...I'd really like to see a reasoned and acceptable argument for the trinity if anyone has one?

  OK, try these verses for size, you will need to read them slowly and carefully :)

  Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)

  9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  mindmelda

  When someone figures out exactly what the Trinity is, let me know. LOL

  But, there is considerable ambiguity in the Bible about the whole nature of Jesus and God. It's not nearly as black and white as the JWs would like to believe.

  Jesus seems to be an aspect or personification of God himself in many scriptures, with equal power and ability for all intents and purposes as they say in legal documents, although since we can understand Jesus a lot easier than some super being floating around invisibly somewhere, Christians sure can relate to Jesus better as a way to worship God, which may the the whole point.

  Witnesses fail in making Jehovah accessible enough for many people. The OT God Yahweh is just too onery and pissed off for the average modern person to get cozy with. We're a lot more civilized now, hard as that is to believe, and we kind of want our God being civilized too, or at least, more civil than we are.

  We're just not good at making gods of any kind unless they're in our own image...only, um...better than us. *G*

  If we're stuck with that whole God thing either way, and I'd rather cozy up to Jesus if I had to chose(which I don't actually, but just for arguments sake!). He's got better people skills than Jehovah, who doesn't get an A from me in "works well with others".
• 

  Lozhasleft

  Cant see how that backs up a 'three gods in one god' Chalam? I've followed the link quoted and its such a convoluted theoristic deliberation with even different types of trinity involved. Jesus spoke in simple terms to reach ordinary humble people that wouldnt have required deep theological analysis at all..just honest hearts....how can men seemingly 'make' a trinity god to suit themselves when there's no mention of one in the scriptures baffles me ! Appreciating people's efforts though. Loz x
• 

  Chalam

  Hello Loz,

  "Three gods in one" is not a definition of the Trinity, "Three persons, one God" is.

  Trinitarianism is monotheism, not polytheism. The WT are polytheistic with their rendering of John 1:1 where as correct rendering is monotheistic John 1:1

  Romans 8:9-11 (New International Version)

  9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

  The Spirit of God lives in the believer. In the next sentence the Spirit of God is now called the "Spirit of Christ". God and Christ are one and the same, and so is their Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

  10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.

  The Spirit of God/Christ that lives in the believer in verse 9 is now is called "Christ in you" i.e. the Holy Spirit is literally Christ, as He is literally God.

  11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

  The Holy Spirit raised Christ from the dead, the "Spirit of Christ" 1 Peter 3:18

  In the last sentence, more confirmation that the Holy Spirit, the "Spirit of Christ", the same "Spirit of God", He lives in the believer.

  Check this out and see what you think.

  Plenty of plain and simple biblical teaching regarding the nature of God, who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is IMHO.

  Trinity01.wmv

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  not a captive

  Why be forced to say "I believe in the Trinity"? If it ain't broke, don't fix it is the way I feel about it. So God is one, and Jesus being of the same nature as God was sent -and willingly came to earth--provided the ransom for us all. We have the Spirit of God operating among or in us as believers. But there is not one human who knows what went on in heaven , Jesus said. What is the point of twisting anyone's arm to say "Trinity"?

  As for judging-I have wondered too and think that Jesus as the glorified son of man has become the gold standard of excellence by which we are measured if we opt to stand on our own instead of under the propitiatory covering of his blood. "No falsehood was found in his mouth, being rreviled he did not go on reviling." I would never be able to stand up next to him but am everlastingly grateful for his gift of covering my sins and giving me a path to follow.

  great post!
• 

  cameo-d

  callitquits:"In John 5:22, the NWT states:

  "The Father judges no one, but has committed all the judging to the son"

  --------

  Judge Dread: You know, in the NAME of the father, the son, and the holy spirit.

  ------

  Maybe we can kill 2 birds with one stone here. Suppose someone (or a group) decides that they "come in the name of Jesus" because they believe they have a righteous mission. It's really no different than the GB channeling spooks or the pope claiming he's been given absolute authority.

  If a group is powerful enough, with heavy backing behind them, I am sure they could try to pull off the Divine Judgement.

  Hey. Maybe that's what the De Jure Guardians and Elders plan to do.
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  The Witnesses have been led to believe that belonging to a Society, which claims to be Israel restored - a new nation, is the way to righteousness, that calling on the name of Jehovah, just as the original nation did, is the way to salvation. They can show this in their Bible. Can they show it in any other bible?

  The following quotes show how other alterations have been made to rob Jesus of his Divinity:

  “For it is in Christ that the complete being of the godhead dwells embodied, and in him you have been brought to completion.” (Colossians 2:9,10 – NE)

  “…because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (Colossians 2:9,10 - NWT)

  ….“God answered, ‘I am; that is who I AM. Tell them I AM has sent you to them’” (Exodus 3:14 - NE)“At this God said to Moses “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE” (Exodus 3:14 – NWT)

  ….“Jesus said, ‘In very truth I tell you, before Abraham was born, I AM.’” (John 8:58 – NE)

  “Jesus said to them, ‘Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.’” (John 8:58 – NWT)

  In Exodus, I AM has been replaced with I SHALL PROVE TO BE, and in John with I HAVE BEEN. Jesus is quoting from the Hebrew Scriptures, and an interlinear Bible will show that Jesus used the Greek ‘EGO EIMI.’ This is present tense and is always translated as I AM. According to Greek scholars there is no exception. For Witnesses to accept that Jesus has always been would mean that other Christians are correct to believe he is not part of creation.

  To fully grasp the import of the alterations in these texts, it is necessary to read the complete texts in your own Bible and compare them to the New World Translation.

  (From Opening the Door to Jehovah's Witnesses - Download available @ Lulu)
• 

  cameo-d

  Gladiator.....you will find that the new images change in the churches and new organizations are all focused on Jesus. (God/jehovah is taking a back seat). If you look into some of the information here and research the new programs you will see they all claim "Christ-centered" and mention Jesus. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/191508/1/God-is-Already-Cleaning-Up-and-the-New-System-Framework-is-Established

  Why the big change? Because people in this age have been taught that Jesus is the more accessible deity. However, most of the covenant contracts I have seen state a "Triune" heavenly government. I know the exJWs complain a lot about Jesus missing from the mix because the WT has too many other deities---like the FDS and the GB. WT already has too much polytheism going on. But the revamped churches are capitalizing on the christ centered theme now.

  Eventually I expect them to assume their righteousness and claim that Jesus said they could do whatever they want "in his name". So that's probably how the New Kingdom will come into being.
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  cameo-d

  Thanks for pointing out the modern 'I love Jesus' trend in churches.

  It is understandable that Christians would want to love the trendy hippie styled man in sandals from Galilee, who only wants to spread love. Any idea that he may be the vengeful God of the 'old testament' could be very upsetting. Best not read The Revelation to John or most of the 'old testament.'

  I personaly no longer care what people believe in, as long as they don't block the sidewalk, drop litter or ban beer on my watch.
• 

  superpunk

  Jesus seems to be an aspect or personification of God himself in many scriptures, with equal power and ability for all intents and purposes as they say in legal documents, although since we can understand Jesus a lot easier than some super being floating around invisibly somewhere, Christians sure can relate to Jesus better as a way to worship God, which may the the whole point.

  IOW Jesus is our Golden Calf.