If the heavenly hope was not for the "Ancients" then how do JW's explain .....

by restrangled 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • greenie


  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    They've villainized the Trinity beyond all reason. It's not what they think it is. You may still not believe it, but it isn't what the Witnesses tell you it is.

    True: It is reasonable to have faith in the Trinity doctrine, the cornerstone of mainstream Christianity. It is not reasonable to believe that Jesus Christ was nothing more than a man, a human, as the Jehovah's Witnesses preach, and that before he walked the earth he was a created angel. Furthermore, the Jehovah's Witnesses incorrectly teach that trinitarianism promotes the worship of three gods; it doesn't. Christians only worship the one true God, YHWH.

    Furthermore, the Jehovah's Witnesses preach, incorrectly, that trinitarian Christians teach that the created humanity of Jesus, the creature, is God Almighty; but that is also false. Orthodox Christians - the overwhelming majority of Catholic and Protestant churches - teach that: “The humanity of Christ is a creature, it is not God” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 922).

    The Jehovah's Witnesses are adamant in condemning the Holy Trinity, teaching that it is unbiblical, illogical and the work of Satan himself. But the Jehovah's Witnesses' beliefs in this regard are false due primarily to a gross misunderstanding of what the doctrine actually teaches. This paper examines these issues in detail and many more related to the doctrine of the Trinity.


  • cameo-d

    Restrangled: "Hence God is not ashamed of them, to be called upon as their God, for he has made a city ready for them."

    "The City" will be a corporate compound in upstate NY.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    It's a demonic cult, and cults do these kinds of things, like change God's word.

    The inspired writer of Hebrews also stated that the patriarchs and other men of old sought a heavenly reward, not earthly, and that this heavenly destination was achieved on the basis of their faith.

    In faith died all these, not having received the promises, but from afar having seen them, and having been persuaded, and having saluted [them], and having confessed that strangers and sojourners they are upon the earth, 14 for those saying such things make manifest that they seek a country; 15and if, indeed, they had been mindful of that from which they came forth, they might have had an opportunity to return, 16 but now they long for a better, that is, an heavenly, wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God, for He did prepare for them a city ... [Heb. 11:13-16 Young's Literal Translation; also NIV (a better country—a heavenly one), NAS (a better country, that is, a heavenly one), NLT (heavenly homeland), KJV (a better country, that is, an heavenly), ESV (a better country, that is, a heavenly one), ASV (a better country, that is, a heavenly)].

    None-the-less, the Jehovah’s Witnesses teach, incorrectly, that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will not go, and never wanted to go, to heaven. This is understandable because to concede otherwise would completely erode their 144,000 theory.

    Who are the “righteous” that are to be resurrected? These will include faithful servants of God who lived before Jesus Christ came to earth. Many of these persons are mentioned by name in Hebrews chapter 11. They did not hope to go to heaven, but hoped to live again on earth (Live Forever, 1989, Resurrection - for Whom? And Where? 172, 20).

    If they had kept remembering and longing for the place they had left, they would have had an opportunity to return. But they were reaching out for a better place - ultimately life on paradise earth under God’s heavenly kingdom. - Hebrews 11:15,16. (W94 5/15 30, Coping With Homesickness in God’s Service).

    And there is no question about the spiritual strength of those men and women of faith listed in Hebrews chapter 11. None of those were “born again.” All of them looked forward to “a better resurrection [to life under God’s kingdom] right here on this earth. - Hebrews 11:35. (W82 2/1c 29 “Born Again” - Man’s Part and God’s Part).

    It is difficult to believe that millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses, perhaps unwittingly, believe this without blinking an eye and completely ignore the clear words of Scripture; but they do. Never-the-less, because at a minimum Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will go to heaven, the 144,000 is symbolic and numbers at least 144,003. The final number cannot be ascertained, but is countless in the sense that it will be in the millions.


  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    A. "Those cities prepared were actually paradise here on earth.....they were yearning for the new government."

    Not possible because the earth shall be destroyed:

    A) Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be ruled over by the 144,000 from heaven

    Eleventh, the Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used as metaphor, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.

    As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect. But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10).

    Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

    Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.

    More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).

    To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.

    Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)

    Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.


  • Chalam

    Hello RS,

    Here are some verses for her.

    A. "Those cities prepared were actually paradise here on earth.....they were yearning for the new government." "you can't just read one scripture and apply it alone....the JW's are the only ones who use the entire bible, and apply scripture that way."

    Hebrews 11:10 (New International Version)

    10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

    Hebrews 12:22 (New International Version)

    22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly

    Galatians 4:25-26 (New International Version)

    25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

    B. You had better read Hebrews such and such about ignoring the blood of Christ and being in god's wrath....(just paraphrasing here, but had all ready read it)....then was told that's why jws push the memorial so vehemently.

    John 6:53 (New International Version)

    53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

    John 6:54 (New International Version)

    54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

    Luke 22:20 (New International Version)

    20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

    Choose your moment carefully. You cannot "win" the argument with her, you need to pray the Lord opens her eye's Acts 26:15-18



  • LongHairGal

    JW woods,

    I agree that it has nothing to do with going 'door to door'. They lived in a whole different world back then and certainly did not go 'door to door'. If anything, they may have had speeches in a town center or square and possibly private meetings in a home.

    The whole planet was different back then and trying to compare or draw a parallel between ancient times and now is like comparing chalk to cheese. I believe the JW religion twisted scriptures to make it say what they wanted it to say.

  • Mary
    "Those cities prepared were actually paradise here on earth.....they were yearning for the new government."

    And where in these verses does it say that these cities were "paradise on earth"? It specifically states that the were "aliens and strangers on earth" and that they longed for a "better country--a heavenly one". Not an earthly one, a heavenly one. There is absolutely nothing there that says anything about the faithful ones of old "yearning for a new government"---they were yearning for a new life.

    This is such typical JW bullshit. Even when the scripture is stating in black and white what it means, the Witnesses totally blind themselves to what's being said and insist that their spin on the bible is the only correct way.

    "you can't just read one scripture and apply it alone

    No? Isn't that what they do for their doctrine of 144,000?

  • My Struggle

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