Abaddon - Re: WASPs

by borgfree 37 Replies latest jw friends

borgfree

Thanks IW,
I may not get back to the bord for several hours. Have a very good night.
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
Abaddon

borgfree; I criticised a statement regarding WASP's, and it seems in response you are in general defending 'white men', which is fine if you want to, but I'll stand by my statement that WASP's, as per the definition I gave, did not build America, as 'white men' and WASP's to me are not the same thing.
I'm more than happy to leave it at that; I think we are at a rather large degree of policital divergance, and don't want to have a discussion that will esentially go no where, as I ain't gonna change my view, and I wouldn't expect you to change yours.
All the best.
borgfree

Abaddon,
You are correct. I have been responding to the term WASP to include all white men. It seems to me that is the way the media has treated the term WASP over the last few decades. I have personally been called a WASP by people who are known as minorities.
I have listened to left wing media types, (most networks) praise every group except white men for years, while at the same time constantly attacking every thing white men do, as being somehow evil. I have heard minority leaders attack the founders of this country as being a bunch of monsters, who invaded a beautiful, peaceful land of totally innocent people (some of my ancestors)and then went about building a country by victimizing every non-white man available.
I am just personally very tired of those attacks and think it is time for "white men" to stand up for the truth. Whatever wrongs the founders of this country did they were not exceptions in history, and, I am sure you know that.
Today, it is acceptable for white men to be called honkey, boy, devils, etc. and they are supposed to take that without complaint, while at the same time people loose jobs and are persecuted for using words, that do not have derogatory meanings, but still offend some minorities simply because those minorities do not know the meaning of those words. Some words are now replaced with initials so that some minority will not be offended, the way you would talk around children.
I did not intend to start some kind of a crusade, I just want the same consideration that is expected for all, except, white men. Whether or not other white men speak up is up to them but I have decided that I will.
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
Abaddon

Hey, if it comes to ancestral guilt, I win; my great x seven or eight grandfather, Sir John Hawkins, was the first Englishman to run the Middle passage, where trade goods were taken from England to Africa, traded for slaves, who were run to the West Indies/Americas, and then a cargo of silver and spices taken in return. Yup, my granddad founded the slave trade. Thanks grandad!
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
borgfree

Abaddon,
If you like guilt then I guess that's a good ancestor to feel guilty about. I think if you were living then, and were maybe his daughter/son, that you would have been very proud of him.
How do you know how your descendants will judge you in say 200 years?
BTW, who did he buy those slaves from?
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
LDH

Borg,
Margaret Thatcher may qualify as a WASP, but unless I'm mistaken, she didn't help build this country and I thought that's what we were talking about, LOL.
I have heard minority leaders attack the founders of this country as being a bunch of monsters, who invaded a beautiful, peaceful land of totally innocent people (some of my ancestors)and then went about building a country by victimizing every non-white man available.
I am just personally very tired of those attacks and think it is time for "white men" to stand up for the truth. Whatever wrongs the founders of this country did they were not exceptions in history, and, I am sure you know that.
You make an interesting point, BF. Because you just told me above:
You must also remember that you are judging the people of that day by today's standards. Not a very fair judgement
So we should call a spade a spade (no pun intended, LOL) and say YES white men raped, pillaged, murdered,plundered etc etc to build this country. However, if the situation were reversed I'm sure we would be saying the same thing about black men or yellow men or red men.
Because power corrupts, regardless of who has it.
Now, I'd like to think that we've learned a LOT in 200 years, so much so that we would never tolerate slavery in our midst today. But let's face truth!!! The economy of the South was built on the backs of slaves! Statistically speaking, during the time of slavery, the millionaires and their plantations were located along the banks of the mighty Mississippi. Where water and slave labor was plentiful.
So just because our nation wouldn't walk the same path today is no reason to deny that we as a nation did walk that path to get where we are!
And please, Borg, don't take an intellectual discussion and interject comments such as:
BTW, who did he buy those slaves from?
It is an established and well known fact that SOME Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery. What is not nearly as well known, originally this concept was to benefit ALL involved. Those sold were CRIMINALS and were not wanted in their native villagers. Selling criminals into slavery is one thing, kidnapping and separating families is another thing entirely.
In case you hadn't heard, not everyone who made the boat trip over was legally purchased, LOL.
Again, this should not be a surprise, just having black skin doesn't mean you were free from sin until the white man corrupted you!
Lisa
Loves discussing the race card class
borgfree

Lisa you said:
Quote: "There does exist plenty of double standards and not just race based, either. I doubt you will ever hear of any famous WASP women, LOL."
I did not know you were limiting it to women who helped build this country.
I do not know all of the background of the early American women but I would think that out of many such as Betsy Ross, Martha Washington, Dolly Madison and others that there must have been a WASP in there someplace.
Also, Quote: "So we should call a spade a spade (no pun intended, LOL) and say YES white men raped, pillaged, murdered,plundered etc etc to build this country. However, if the situation were reversed I'm sure we would be saying the same thing about black men or yellow men or red men."
I am not sure I got your point. I do not think we have to go back in history to see that your statement is true. We only need to examine today in Africa, Afganistan, Iraq, China, and some I am forgetting.
A few years ago we had examples in Japan and their ally's.
Maybe the point that I missed was your comment that power corrupts. If that is the case I agree with you. I even made the comment years before I left the WT that if our elders (Richmond, Indiana)were an example of the Princes who would be ruling us in the "new system" then I did not want to live there.
You said:
Quote: "Now, I'd like to think that we've learned a LOT in 200 years, so much so that we would never tolerate slavery in our midst today."
Maybe not in our midst but still practiced today, Sudan, I think.
I still have trouble with the notion that this country was built on the backs of those slaves in the south. Those were plantations as you said, much like the large corporation agricultural ranches of today. The corporations today use migrant workers to bring in their crops but if migrant workers were not available they would use whatever work force was available, prices might be higher but there are always workers.
I have to believe the same was true back in slave days. Those plantation owners were not fools, if they did not have access to slavery they would have done whatever was necessary to harvest their crops. If I can believe history, those crops were mostly cotton, am I then to believe that our country's future rested on whether or not the slaves brought in the cotton?
I have been involved in business for many years now. I will tell you that successful business men will do what it takes to make the business a success, if one thing does not work they go to the next thing until they solve their problem, slaves or no slaves.
You Said:
Quote "It is an established and well known fact that SOME Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery. What is not nearly as well known, originally this concept was to benefit ALL involved. Those sold were CRIMINALS and were not wanted in their native villagers. Selling criminals into slavery is one thing, kidnapping and separating families is another thing entirely."
I guess I am not sure of the truth here. I have read that Africans raided villages for the purpose of kidnapping people to sell into slavery. If that is true then why do only white American men get demonized when it comes to slavery? And is it ok to sell criminal men into slavery?
Again you said:
Quote:
"Again, this should not be a surprise, just having black skin doesn't mean you were free from sin until the white man corrupted you!"
You coulda fooled me! Judging by the media for the last 30 - 40 years.
Borgfree (mad as hell and ain't gonna take it anymore class) kidding, just kidding!!
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
LDH

that if our elders (Richmond, Indiana)were an example of the Princes who would be ruling us in the "new system" then I did not want to live there.
Good one! I think most of the posters here feel the same way.
FYI Sudan isn't the only country where slavery is openly practised; last year I started a thread on chocolate. Apparently, all of the chocolate bars you and I are eating are manufactured through child labor, on the West coast of Africa. Lots of these children are kidnapped.
It's very sad, BF, to see people not respecting others simply as human beings first.
Personally, I have nothing against white pride or black pride or Irish pride or whatever. I do tend to draw the line when that pride dictates that you're better then others based on the merits of something that you had nothing to do with!
I.e., "I'm proud to be German!" is miles away from "Germans kick ass and Jews suck and therefore we should kill them all."
You are right when you say:
The corporations today use migrant workers to bring in their crops but if migrant workers
But did you know that those migrants, even illegal immigrants, are afforded rights? Now yer barkin up my tree cuz I live in the Central Valley of California, the Ag capital of the world. Yes I'm sure there are still some farmers who abuse the migrants (Hey! Newsflash! Not only Mexicans pick in the fields! Hmong, Laotian, etc are out there busting their ass too).
They are protected by the INS Wage and hour division, as they deserve to be.
There is one major difference though in the example you cited. Namely, people are breaking the law to get in this country and do grunt work because even on the lowest rung of the ladder there is still opportunity for them to move ahead.
Now, can you say the same thing for the black slaves? I doubt most of the blacks in this country can even identify the country of their ancestors birth! .Migrants today are also allowed to keep their culture, name, religion, etc
No, I have to disagree with you when you state that migrant workers and slaves had similarities.
As far as the women you quoted, Betsy Ross et all. Yeah they were WASP women. But each of the examples you cited were made famous by their DOMESTIC TALENTS, not their business acumen.
The first woman business woman millionare was IN FACT black. Madame CJ Walker. Her family still has millions today.
And hey, for what it's worth, the media has its own agenda. With EVERYTHING. My dad used to say, "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you read." I think it's an old Southern expression.
Lisa
borgfree

Lisa,
I am not sure about the chocolate bars, when I do eat them (rarely) I choose Nestle, I think they are Swiss.
I mostly agree with you. I am not on a white pride kick. I only get upset when some other group chooses to declare their pride and at the same time deny white people the same right.
I did not mean to totally equate migrant workers with slaves, only that business men will use the cheapest and most convenient workers available, in most cases.
You said: "Now, can you say the same thing for the black slaves? I doubt most of the blacks in this country can even identify the country of their ancestors birth!"
No, I can't say the same thing about blacks. I wonder though, how many of them after being in this country for a few years would have chosen to return to Africa and the conditions they left? Also how many of their decendants would choose to go back?
My grandmother (fathers side) was full blooded Cherokee. I would not like to live under the conditions that existed before the European settlers came. Our ancestors have made great sacrifices resulting in great benefits to us, I think we should all honor them for that and leave all of the wrongs in the past.
I wont go into the Dolly Madison cakes etc., I should leave well enough alone.
edited - wrote the wrong name.
Borgfree
"Without knowledge there can be no genuine faith--only superstition on the one hand or speculation on the other" Robert Banks
LDH

Borg I hear ya on the chocolate. The investigation uncovered that 80% of the cacao bean supply is slave acquired. I don't think eating Swiss chocolate lets you off the hook, LOL.
Good point about blacks going back to Africa. That one's always stuck in my craw. Anyone in their right mind would prefer to be here, regardless of how their ancestors got here.
If not, I'm sure there's a plane with yer name on it somewhere.
In a way, false pride racists remind me of US JWs. Always fucking complaining and talking about how Jehovah's gonna fix the WHOLE earth, and how evil it is here in the US. They don't even get that MOST of the non-US JW's would be very HAPPY in the US. Shit, they might not even need the pipe dream that the WBTS offers if they were living here. Bunch of ungrateful sods.
And instead of doing anything to fix it, all they do is freakin condemn the rulership.
I think on the 'white pride' thing, I find it more prefereable to have pride in, say, an ethnic group than a skin color. That gets me a little touchy. Every ethnic group has contributed something to modern man.
I.e., "I'm proud to be a Welshman" sounds a lot better than "I'm proud to be white!"
You might also notice I NEVER capitalize skin color. Why is it ok to write 'Black' but not 'white.'
Inconsistencies are remarkable, no?
Lisa

Abaddon - Re: WASPs

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