Watchtower blaspheming the holy spirit

by sacolton 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Krettnawe
    Krettnawe

    Krett, what exactly do you disagree with in my post?

    Just the way it is presented. I personally find dogmatic assertions of interpretive superiority over subjective subjects of discussion, and man-made checklists of approval before GOD as counter-productive to the overall spirit of Christiainty. Or perhaps I am overly-sensitive to this behavior because it is something the WTS does. But at least they admit it rather than pretend it isnt happening.

    After all that distaste for dogmaticism is eventually what led me out of JW's. But I have found in my on-line discussion with many ex-JW's that they find themselves back in the very trap they escaped from. Sure, they cant force anyone to beleive what they want them to beleive as an individual, but if they had the organizational structure the WTS does.... What would they do?

    You have already set up my destruction because, by your own words, I blaspheme against the SPIRIT because I dont beleive the HOLY SPIRIT is a being of any kind. You dont like it when the JW's do this to you right? Why would I like it when you do this to me?

    If the Holy Spirit calls someone out of the Watchtower organization to become a follower of Jesus Christ (and give Him worship) - why do Jehovah's Witnesses say they have become followers of Satan or that they have abandoned God?

    What if the HOLY SPIRIT is keeping someone in the WTS? You see, for me personally, I needed the WTS to be brought into a relationship with Jesus Christ. I was a practicing ATHIEST/ AGNOSTIC and would have never set foot inot a Church without someone coming and plucking me out of my little world. That someone happened to be the JW's. I learned alot from them about the Bible, they put forth alot of effort in HELPING ME IMPROVE my life. My BS instructor was like a FATHER to me, and many individual JW's put alot of hours into helping my family and I in many different ways. So, my point is, that I believe GOD puts each and every one of us exactly where we need to be at a certain time.

    Eventually I felt like I outgrew the WTS so to speak, and moved on. But that wasnt something that happened overnight. We should be carefull about tearing people away from the only world they know, because for some this leads to spiritual shipwreck. Jesus never said the ones that stayed in the boat were not his followers did he? Peter did something extraordinary by stepping out of the boat and keeping his eyes on Jesus. But some people are not ready for that, nor will they ever be. But at least they are not drowning.

    JW's beleive Jesus worship (as in he is GOD) is worshipping the creation rather than the creator. When one worships the BEGOTTEN RATHER than the BEGETTER then your not meeting a checkpoint on thier list of GOD's approval. They beleive, honestly beleive, they are right, and their spiritual vision is not wide enough to see how ludicrous it is for GOD to start closing up the heavens over subjective doctrines.

    But, as someone who has widened out so to speak, should we still participate in the same behavior we have left behind? If you are truly spiritually enlightened then you should be able to rise above the very behavior that you came to loathe.

    JW Do you not agree that this grieves the Holy Spirit? I'm not judging anyone.

    Now GRIEVING the HOLY SPIRIT and blasphemeing the HOLY SPIRIT are different matters. I think humans do alot of things to each other and to themselves that grieves the HOLY SPIRIT.

    But blaspheming the HOLY SPIRIT based on subjective interpretations...

    That is treading on dangerous ground.... Especially if you have outgrown that spiritual infancy that spawns dogmaticism.

    I was interrupted many times, sorry if it rambles a bit...

  • jehovahsheep
    jehovahsheep

    good post-i always wondered how zealous witnesses would leave and never return.now i know is because we have found freedom in christ.

  • designs
    designs

    Basically people settle into something they like...better, whether its becoming a Catholic or Baptist or Buddhist or one of the many Un philosophies.

    Its always fascinating how people will accept one set of invented philosophies over another....ain't being human grand

  • EverAStudent
    EverAStudent

    Krett, thanks for the expansion. I am curious, what do you presently believe about:

    - Jesus, is He God (same substance as the Father) or less than God (a little so-called god who should not be worshipped and prayed to)?

    - the Holy Spirit (not a person, not the same substance as the Father)?

    - are you born again?

    - are you indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

    Thanks!

  • jehovahsheep
    jehovahsheep

    i believe accepting christ is different-not to be confused with other pursuits.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Krettnawe, thanks for your explanation as well. And I apologize for my presumptuous statement that we would disagree on much. Although I can tell you right off the bat we do disagree on the trinity. LOL But that does not need to be an issue. I respect you for your beliefs and where you have journeyed.

    Blessings to you

    IH

  • designs
    designs

    You know if the Sabellians and Unitarians had been the rat-bastards that the Trinitarians were people sitting in their Pews would be whistleing a different Hymm...........curious no si

  • Krettnawe
    Krettnawe

    Krett, thanks for the expansion. I am curious, what do you presently believe about:

    - Jesus, is He God (same substance as the Father) or less than God (a little so-called god who should not be worshipped and prayed to)?

    I dont beleive Jesus is GOD, but rather the SON of GOD. The nature argument, or substance argument I have seen so many times put forth by Trinitarians has never made sense to me beause this substance or nature is undefinable in the BIBLE. You see, the angels are called "elohiyms" in Psalms 8:5, and even Jesus refers back to Psalms 82 In John 10:34-35 where the Judges were called gods. Also, in 1 Peter 2:4 it says the followers of Jesus will "share in the divine nature". If we follow this undefinable substance or nature argument then all those who share this must also be GOD. (My gosh am I really putting myself into another Trinity argument.... sigh....).

    Should he be worshipped? As in the same worship the congregation of Philadelphia recieves in REvelation 3:9, or the Ruler receives in Matthew 18:26? Once again, if we are going to use "proskueno" as a basis for deciding who is GOD, then that principle must apply in all cases. But it doesnt, and the selective translation is not a good basis for such a central doctrine for so many.

    With that in mind I do think he should be prayed to. After he recieved "ALL AUTHORITY" he should be honored as his FATHER Jehovah is (John 5:22-23) and he clearly said HE could and would answer prayers in John 14:14. But, all of those things were only possible after it had been GIVEN to him by Jehovah. So, it clearly was not his, and to me this means he isnt GOD.

    The Oneness and Modalism Trinitarianism presented by the WTS is a good Strawman no doubt, but even after looking at other explanations I still just can't bring myself to saying the BEGOTTEN is the same as the BEGETTER.

    But I dont beleive the WTS gives enough credit to Jesus personally, and the intellectualizing of Christianity (taking in knowledge of) instead of "knowing" Jesus means they cant quite understand Jesus's role completely.

    - the Holy Spirit (not a person, not the same substance as the Father)?

    Not GOD, just the power that he uses to "become what he shall become". I kind of covered the "substance argument above.

    - are you born again?

    I have been waiting for my Damuscusation but it hasnt happened yet. Perhaps I am holding back, because I do feel when I examine myself I have so many things to work on. I have never taken Communion, and just cant bring myself to making such a claim. I have seen others describe it as a "life-changing" event. Perhaps I am not worthy to recieve that, perhaps I am expecting too much, or perhaps I just dont know what to expect. I have had one spritually moving experience (besides all teh cliche ones) and that was when I heard a sermon about staying in the boat or walking on the water. I realized the WTS was my boat. It was comfortable and it floated, but I would like to think I am special enough to walk on water for just a bit! But, to be honest, I have tested teh water a few times, and still find myself sinking. I am working on it though.

    So to answer your question...

    I dont know, and I dont know if I ever will know.

    - are you indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

    Explained above..... That is an awfully loud declaration, and I still dont feel like I am up to the challenge of meeting the responsibility that comes with that statement.

    Be carefull, because if you expect the WTS or others to be perfect after making this declaration, then you ought to do the same.

    I just cant go there yet....

    Thanks!

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Thank you Krettnawe. I know you do not want to debate, so forgive me here but I just wanted to ask one question regarding the Holy Spirit,if that is ok. If the Holy Spirit is simply a part of God, his power that he manipulates to do what he wants it to do why would it need to receive from Jesus? Jesus told his apostles that he would ascend to the Father and receive all from his Father and then Jesus would give all he had to the Spirit which he would then send as their helper. You don't even have to answer me if you don't want to get into it...I meant this with all due respect.

  • EverAStudent
    EverAStudent

    Krett, thank you for detailed answers. I have great respect for anyone who is willing to do such an in depth spiritual self-assessment.

    It is my hope (and it is my literal prayer) that you will one day pray to become born again. When you do, the Holy Spirit will imperceptibly regenerate your spirit and make it alive to Christ (until you are born again your spirit is dead in sin--Ephesians 2:1). When you pray to be born again the Holy Spirit comes to live inside you (Romans 8:9, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 2 Timothy 1:14, James 4:5, Ephesians 4:30) and He makes the Bible understandable in a way that was not possible before.

    Your comment made me laugh out loud. After being born again no one will be yet be perfect. Not even ex-JWs. However, after being born again the Holy Spirit will remind you to pray for forgiveness when you do sin, and God always instantly forgives us when we do (1 John 1:9).

    Blessings to you.

    As a side note, something fun to think about: God is a holy spirit without a body. Before Jesus was born (begotten) as a human to Mary, He too was a holy spirit without a body. John 1:18 says that before Jesus was born to Mary He, as a holy spirit, was in the bosom (the very center) of God, also a holy spirit. Two persons existing as one spirit?

    Again, blessings.

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