Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon 274 Replies latest social current

• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  I did tell you simply ask. I didn't however, avoid anything. "Simply asking" doesn't mean re-asking the same poorly worded question that doesn't make sense over and over.

  Viviane,

  I asked the question I asked in order to know your position on what I asked about. If I had wanted to know your position about something else I'd have asked a different question. I can't help it if you don't like the question, or if you don't want to answer what is asked. That's your problem. Not mine.

  By now it's apparent you don't want to answer questions. You've made every excuse imaginable in this discussion to avoid answering, and this despite advising participants if they want to know your position on something then they simply need to ask.

  Finally, saying a question is stupid or poorly worded does not answer the question asked. It is, rather, no more than a personal assertion, otherwise known as an opinion. Fine. I'm glad you have one, and that you're willing to share it. I don't mind you sharing your personal opinion about the question asked, so long as you answer the question for what is actually asks at face value. Alternately, we always have the option to refuse answering questions. This tells readers something as well.
• 

  Marvin Shilmer

  Does someone have a quote of Jesus supporting homosexuality? He defined marriage as between a man and a woman. He had lots of opportunity to speak against bigotry but he didn't.

  When it comes to gender and sexuality there is a great deal left unsaid in the Bible.The world lived in by biblical characters was way more complex than simple male and female gender and heterosexuality. For instance, what was an ancient born with ambiguous genitalia supposed to do with a biblical text advising about males doing something obscene with males?

  Moreover, and as you seem to suggest, the biblical depiction of Jesus does not have him advocating for civil rights in general. Best I can tell, the biblical Jesus wanted followers who would follow him on his terms. Then in the post-Jesus era someone named Saul came along who had a name change to Paul, and this man changed the face of Jesus followers.

  Edited to add: Probably the most common sexual practice among humans is masturbation. Yet the Bible is totally silent about it.
• 

  Clambake

  In Canada I know of a case where a gay couple approached a minister of some denomination to marry them and he said he couldn’t do it in good conscience. Instead of just finding another minister to do the ceremony they just filed a lawsuit against him and won.

  I don’t know the exact details of the Indiana law but I really hope it protects people in those situations. I really don’t believe Gays are Lesbians are that discriminated against in the US to the degree in which they believe they are.
• 

  JeffT

  People keep citing the Arlene's Flowers case here in Washington State as an example of Christians wanting to refuse service to Gays. I think a little background is in order. The owner of the flower shop had been doing business with the gay couple for a number of years, knew they were gay and even sold them flowers for events like birthdays for each other. When approached to supply flowers for the wedding, she declined but referred them to another local florist who could comfortably meet their needs. They filed the lawsuit and the fireworks started.

  https://www.aclu.org/lgbt-rights/ingersoll-v-arlenes-flowers

  
  http://www.tri-cityherald.com/2015/02/20/3419458/arlenes-flowers-owner-rejects.html

  Food for thought: do you want to be required by law to provide whatever you do for a living to a Kingdom Hall?

  Edited to add: should she be required by law to provide flowers for this weekend's memorial service, even if she doesn't want to?
• 

  DJS

  The gay couple were right; the florist wrong. She should have lost. Have you not been reading ANY of the posts re: what a constitutional democracy means? What 'for the common good' means? What 'utilitarian' means? And If I was in a commercial for profit business I would provide whatever legal services the KH asked. Nor do I care what any of these X-tians 'feel.' The main reason is because I'm in a for profit business; the second reason being I don't make my life decisions on feelings and the third reason being that I understand what type of country I live in. We answered your emotional whining when we referenced the KKK bakery case that the KKK won a couple of years ago, as they should have.

  One more time: the SCOTUS and regional courts have never, to my knowledge, supported commercial for profit businesses in discrimination cases such as these. That's because they follow the US Constitution.

  If you can't do anything but rehash nonsense, this board would be better served if you avoided the keyboard. The ONLY reason Indiana, GA, AK and other states are passing these laws is because the right wing fundie X-tians have lost a lot of court cases lately on this topic and because they can - right wing fundies comprise a dis-proportionate percentage of state houses and senates. It's when they get to the national level where they have problems. Ask Indiana's governor.
• 

  DJS

  Clambake,

  Please provide references or a url. I found this:

  CAMBRIDGE, Ontario, September 11, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A Church of Christ minister who has been responsible for civic marriage ceremonies at Cambridge city hall for the past 15 years is facing the axe if she doesn’t agree to perform same-sex “marriages.”

  This minister is working for the government, performing civil marriages. Is this what you are referring to? If so, this isn't a church. She is wrong; they are right.
• 

  Viviane

  I asked the question I asked in order to know your position on what I asked about. If I had wanted to know your position about something else I'd have asked a different question. I can't help it if you don't like the question, or if you don't want to answer what is asked. That's your problem. Not mine.

  As I said, simply ask a question that makes sense and you'll get answer. It IS your problem that the question doesn't make sense.

  Finally, saying a question is stupid or poorly worded does not answer the question asked. It is, rather, no more than a personal assertion, otherwise known as an opinion. Fine. I'm glad you have one, and that you're willing to share it.

  In some cases, such as this, fact and opinion are the same.

  I don't mind you sharing your personal opinion about the question asked, so long as you answer the question for what is actually asks at face value. Alternately, we always have the option to refuse answering questions. This tells readers something as well.

  Mostly that you don't understand why your question doesn't make sense and aren't interested in finding out why.

  As I've consistently said, if you want to know, simply ask in a way that makes sense. If you don't know how to do that, please feel free to ask for help.
• 

  Viviane

  Food for thought: do you want to be required by law to provide whatever you do for a living to a Kingdom Hall?

  How is that in any way the same thing?
• 

  Clambake

  DJS, that is not the case but same idea

  When I got married it had to be a civil ceremony because I wasn’t a baptized JW and we couldn’t get married in a church or she would be dfd. The first person I picked was a women but my wife rejected her because she refused to be married by a women. We threw together our wedding in a big hurry because the elders were coming down hard on her and we just wanted them to fuck off.

  I had to go though about five or six JPs so we could get it done in a big hurry. The idea of backing a JP in a corner to marry me or else is ridiculous.

  Being a Justice of the peace isn’t like being a heart surgeon. Just like I have the choice who I pick, they should have the choice who they marry. In a free country you have the freedom to be an asshole if you want, right or wrong.
• 

  DJS

  That's the problem with theists, well at least one of the problems. So many of you make every life decision and take every stand on every issue based on your feelings. What if the KKK asked me to bake a cake for them? I would ask how big and how many? What if the KH needed my Lights or Lawn Care or to Clean their toilets? I would say include all of these and I will give you a multi-service discount.

  I'm just surprised any of you feeler/perceivers had enough damn sense to escape the Dark Lords' clutches. Clam, if the JOP is working for the government, he or she doesn't have the right to refuse marrying gays. As part of any government position there is an understanding that you will uphold the tenets of the US Constitution. They can of course sue to see if the courts will uphold their refusal.

  I've tried being a kinder, gentler DJS. It is a challenge at times.

  Theists, I am out here for you. You don't know what it's like to be ME out here for YOU. It is an up-at-dawn, pride-swallowing siege that I will never fully tell you about, ok? Help me... help you. Help me, help you.

  Help me .. help you.