Mormons and rudeness

John Doe

What is it with these people? I left my apartment a few minutes ago to go pick up my check, you know, on a mission. These two spiffy suited young pricks spot me from 200 feet away, and nearly trip over themselves running up to me.

"Hi! How you doing?!"

Me, I don't make eye contact, I check my mail and pretty much ignore them, muttering back "I'm fine."

I have my Tony Stewart Home Depot cap on, and they say "Are you a Nascar fan?"

"Nah, not really" I say, hoping to shut them up. I walk to my car, and the taller dude physically jumps in front of me and sticks his hand out, which I grudgingly shake.

Now, at this point, I felt I'd given every indication I can without actually saying it to leave me the hell alone. But this only seems to make them stronger in their sales pitch. They say "We represent the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints, and we're missionaries sharing with people how they can blah blah blah. Blah blah blah."

I give him 20 seconds or so as I wait for a pause to say I'm not interested. I'm meanwhile unlocking my car door. When I realize he's not going to shut up for the forseeable future, I say "Look, I'm not interested." In any dialect of English, that means buzz off, right?

Well, the other one pipes up and says "Oh, are you familiar with our church? Who else have you talked to? What do you think of our church?"

I said "I'm really not interested." Twice. That should be enough, right? Forget it. They then start in on their spiel again. And I cut him off and say "LOOK, I AM NOT INTERESTED!"

Game, set, match, right? Wrong. "Ok, that's understandable, would you direct us to someone else we can help?"

Ahggggg. I'm wanting to pull my freaking hair out. "No, I really can't recommend you to anyone. I don't believe in what you're doing." as I get in my car, shut the door, and leave before they can say anything else. They leave, meekly looking down like I'd just dumped wet water on them.

Now, I ask, why do we allow these people to go so far beyond the realm of politeness? These guys had me steaming by not respecting what I was unmistakeably telling them, and butting in where they were not invited. What would you have done?

lancelink

I've been reading this lately, has some good points :

I had a n interest in things Mormon since my cousin converted to that faith after marrying a Mormon man. Over the last 15 years or so, my cousin, her husband, and I have had discussions periodically. Once they gave me a Mormon book designed to introduce the neophyte to their basic beliefs. I found the book very interesting. They used a lot of the same scriptures that C a tholics use to justify church authority. They a re right. The Bible does te a ch Church authority; they just have applied the verses to the wrong church! Another time, my cousins gave me a video, which portrayed their histories and struggles in the early years, including stories of m a rtyrdom. I found the video to be sentimental and a whitewash of the er a .

Anyway, for the past couple of ye a rs, Mormon mission a ries have come knocking on my door every three months or so. I don't know if they are simply targeting this area or my cousins h a ve told them to stop by, but I seem to have fresh-faced boys calling themselves "Elders" knocking pretty regularly a t my door.

I always invited them in until I learned that they were uncomfortable. I am a widow and these boys are not supposed to come in to a lone wom a n's house. So now I invite them to sit on my front porch, and I offer them a soda or a cup of cold water, and cookies, when I h a ve them.

They are always very appreciative of the treats. Hospitality goes a long way in the world, including the a pologetics world.

The first thing to do, a ccording to former Mormon Thom a s F. Smith, is to get them to give you their first n a mes. Mission a ries will introduce themselves as "Elder Smith" and "Elder Doe" and they w a nt you to call them th a t.

Usually, I have to ask them more than once to get their first names. Once I had a particularly difficult time getting their first names. Exasperated, I said, "I understand that in your church you are called Elder, but you are not my elder and if we are to have a discussion we need to be on respectful terms." They gave me their n a mes.

What's Your A uthority?

Mormons will agree about church authority. In fact, they have a s a y ing, "Protestantism doesn't have a leg to stand on. Either the Catholic Church is true or the Mormon Church is true." This belief by Mormons that either their church is true or the Catholic Church is true m a kes young mission a ries especially curious about the Catholic Church. They come to the apologetics table with at least a grudging respect for the Catholic Church; after all, we have a leg to stand on. That's why well-catechized Catholics have a re a l opportunity to dialogue with and ev a ngelize Mormon s.

Since Mormon s believe that the very early Church was true, whenever I t a lk to mission a ries , I always ask them just when the Church apostatized. From their liter a ture, I know they s a y that the Church apostatized immediately after the death of the last Apostle. One time, the missionary repeated th a t to me and I replied, "Then you a re s a y ing that St. Polycarp who learned the faith from the Apostle John and was martyred was an apostate and also all the other early Church fathers who learned from the A postles."

The boy was a s to unded and b a cked off s a y ing, "Well, yes, there were early Christian martyrs who were f a ithful."

"So, when did the Church apost a tize?"

He w a s stumped.

But after awhile, I wasn't happy with my apologetic approach of "explain why I should give you a hearing." They would always try to steer the conversation to some pat, prepared argument that I w a s ill-equipped to handle. I have t a pes which te a ch you how to explain why v a rious Mormon arguments are wrong, but, honestly, I don't have the time or the inclin a tion to study and memorize those a rguments.

To uch the Heart and Re a ch the Mind

I needed to find a way th a t worked for me to try to reach these earnest, but err a nt souls.

Last summer, there was a knock my door.

I answered it and w a s surprised to see two young men there. They introduced themselves as Elder "Smith" and Elder "Doe." It w a s hot , so I asked them if they would like a cup of water. They said, "Yes." As I went to my fridge and scooped ice into a couple of paper cups, I pr a yed. "Oh Lord, help me to talk with them rightly. I really need your help, I don't know squ a t."

As I stepped onto the porch with the water, I said, "I know from prior visits you a re not supposed to come in when a woman is alone, so we can sit on the porch and t a lk."

They took their cups and arranged themselves on the porch. I made a ment a l note to maybe get some ch a irs out there.

I decided to take the initi a tive.

"Before we get started, I need to tell you something straight out. If you start quoting scripture to me or a prepared speech, my eyes will glaze over, my mind will freeze, and I won't be able to follow you and we can't talk at all. If you want to talk to me, then we have to t a lk to gether like hum a n beings."

I paused and stretched out my h a nd.

"I'm Catholic, my name is Kathy, wh a t's yours?"

In turn, they shook my h a nd.

"My name is D a rren."

"Mine is John."

Wow! They didn't even try to get me to c a ll them Elder!

I remembered what a wise homilist once said. "When you meet someone new, don't ask them what they do. Ask them where they came from. How many are in their families? How many brothers and sisters do they have? Get to know their personal lives." The priest said that was a great w a y to get people to re a lly open up.

So I did this with the mission a ries . They told me about their hometowns and their families. At one point, Darren said that he had strayed from his faith during his high school years, but eventually h a d come to believe it.

"Why do you believe in the Mormon faith?" I a sked.

"Because I feel it's right," D a rren replied.

"Is that what you base your faith on, a feeling?" I a sked.

"Yes. Well, more than that…" he looked a little confused.

"Wh a t?"

"Well, you look around and you can see th a t there is design to the world, you know that there is a God," he s a id.

"That's true," I a greed, "but why do you believe in the Mormon f a ith?"

"I feel it's true."

Now that they had had a ch a nce to share some of themselves and their faith with me, they gave me the s a me courtesy.

"That's not enough for me. I know th a t Mormon s a sk you to re a d The Book of Mormon and see if you get a burning feeling. I could never base my faith on a feeling."

The two of them looked genuinely surprised.

I continued, "I have an aunt who gave me a book c a lled His to ry of the Origin of A ll Things. On its cover page it claims "Given by the Lord Our God" and then a few lines down it s a y s "Revised by Him." I guess 84 years later God's work needed revision. By the way, this book was written around the same time a s The Book of Mormon. My aunt believes it faithfully. When I a sk her why, she s a y s its bec a use she feels its true. And she is passionate a bout it. When I try to point some inconsistency out to her about it, she just gets worked up a nd s a y s she knows it's true."

This seemed to trouble the two mission a ries .

"What do you base your faith on?" Darren a sked.

"Well, first we h a ve to define faith. How do you define faith?" I a sked them.

Paraphrasing Hebrews 11:1, John said, "F a ith is believing in the unseen."

"That is a part of faith, but it's not a sufficient definition," I replied.

"Then how do you define f a ith?"

"Faith is believing in something that someone has told us but th a t we wouldn't know on our own. When you go into the s to re and look at a can of beans you have faith in the l a bel. You have f a ith that beans are actually in the c a n, but you don't know it. You didn't actually see the be a ns being put in to the can and sealed up. Still, your faith is well-placed because can labels are pretty reli a ble."

I paused for a moment to let that sink in a nd then I continued.

"This is real faith, but it's not infallible. A can might be mislabeled — indeed, that happened to me once and it was a very strange feeling to open a can of peaches and see green beans. A lot of religious people are going to be surprised a fter they die, to o."

They nodded in a greement.

"When we speak of religious faith we are speaking of a divine faith. Catholics define this type of faith as believing what God has told us. And how does he spe a k to us? Through the Church."

"How do you know God spe a ks to you through the Catholic Church?" a sked John.

"When Jesus walked the earth He taught that He was the Son of God and backed it up by His miracles, especially the Resurrection. Jesus personally established the Catholic Church as testified in St. Matthew's Gospel. The Apostles and early Christians bore person a l witness to Christ, and they handed down what they saw through the Catholic Church. The C a tholic Church te a ch es the s a me to day as it did yesterday. Testimony and consistency is essentially why I believe wh a t I believe. I do not believe because I read a book and waited for a feeling."

I wanted to involve them more in the conversation, so I asked, "Darren, when you used the argument about belief in God from design, you were not using your feelings, you were using your mind. Reason is a gift from God; He w a nts us to use it."

"I agree with that," Darren s a id.

"You were using one of Saint Thomas Aquinas's proofs for the existence of God. Have you ever heard of Thomas Aquin a s?

"No, I haven't," replied D a rren.

"Neither have I," s a id John.

"You are using Catholic arguments for the existence of God; you should at least read Aquinas and the other early Church F a thers."

"Who are the early Church Fathers?" a sked John

"They are the gre a t te a ch ers of the e a rly church."

"I would like to read them, how can I do that?" he a sked.

"Just go on the Internet. Use Google and type in Church Fathers. You will find a to n of inform a tion."

We didn't really discuss this further. We discussed a few other things like prayer and contemporary miracles. Since I had said that testimony was important to me, they asked a bout the testimonies in the introduction to The Book of Mormon . There eleven men cl a im to have seen the original golden t a blets on which The Book of Mormon w a s given to Joseph Smith. They asked if I had re a d those testimonies.

"Yes. But I understand th a t most of them to ok back their st a tements."

D a rren quickly replied, "They left the Church but they never renounced their testimony."

Having no deep knowledge of this incident, I simply said, "Their st a tements would not be sufficient for me to put credibility in to the Mormon religion. The only Apostle who renounced Christ's testimony hanged himself. The others were all m a rtyrs for Him."

"I don't wish to offend you, but the Catholic Church is resplendent with miracles and holy men and women down through the a ges, despite her sinners. I invite you to seriously consider the Catholic Church, it is your herit a ge."

"How is it our heritage?" John a sked.

"The LDS faith came out of Protestantism which came out of C a tholicism."

We had reached a bit of an impasse. Before they went their way, I w a nted to to uch on one more import a nt subject.

"Before you leave, would you mind telling me one more thing about your faith. Wh a t is the Mormon conception of the Cosmos? Who is God?"

They looked uncomfortable. Talking with a non- Mormon about their belief in more than one God is not in their pl a n.

John said, "We believe that God is the father and the cre a to r of a ll this."

"God is the cre a to r of everything?"

"Yes."

"I am happy to he a r you s a y that, that you believe in just one God. I have heard other things about your beliefs. So, if I understand you correctly, God did not have a cre a to r Himself?"

"No. He had a cre a to r."

"Then He's not God. God can't have a cre a to r."

Then I spread out my five fingers and pointing to my baby finger I said, "You a re s a y ing that this is god and he was created by (pointing to my ring finger) this god and that this god (pointing to tall man) was created by this god and th a t this god (pointing to my index finger) was created by this god and so on and so forth so that it goes on forever. You have a series of gods with no ultim a te source. So none of them exist."

Darren said, "But God is never beginning a nd never ending."

"Yes," I said, "but God can't have anything greater than He is. If He is created, then the cre a to r is greater than the creature. God is the uncaused cause. Th a t is the te a ch ing of Thomas Aquinas. Even the great Greek philosophers knew th a t."

I wanted to end on a positive note with them and not sound triumph a list. I commented to them that there is much that Catholics a nd Mormon s agree on, like Church authority. I pointed out to them that I had read a letter their President Hinckley had written and that it read like a papal encyclical. I didn't w a nt to offend them, but I honestly believe their leader was copying the style and content of Pope John P a ul II.

Amazingly, they didn't get defensive at all and John admitted, "Th a t might be true."

I put Darren and John's names up on the list in our Adoration Chapel and in my prayer journal. I a dmire their willingness to go out and evangelize. I pray that they will find the truth and that at the end of life, they will not have opened a can of peaches and gotten green be a ns.

Katherine Andes is the co-author with Matt Pinto of Friendly Defenders Catholic Flash Cards. She is also a freelance writer for business communications, advertising, and grants. You can write her at [email protected] or visit her web site at KatherineAndes.com.

This article was originally published in Envoy Magazineand is used by permission of the author.

3 Comments For This Post

Guest says:
February 12th, 2007 at 6:43 am
Wow, she h a ndled this extremely well. I feel pretty knowledge a ble a bout my f a ith, but I don't know th a t I could h a ve defended it so well under pressure.
Guest says:
February 12th, 2007 at 10:57 am
The Holy Spirit at work ! th a t is wonderful !
Guest says:
February 12th, 2007 at 11:07 am
Having also had a close relative join the LDS (and then, convincing his Catholic girlfriend to do the same, so they could get married), I very much appreciate Katherine's article. I have frequently prayed to God for charity, wisdom, and presence of mind when discussing religious matters with him…after my initial shock and grief wore off, that is! Unfortunately, until that happened, I said some pretty uncharitable things to him, which I then had to humbly apologize for if I w a nted to keep the rel a tionship open.
The Mormons seem to count on this grief reaction, however, and often deliber a tely use it to emotion a lly sever new converts' non- Mormon family relationships, thus to establish the LDS as the converts' new family. To anyone else in this situation, be warned, and do NOT pl a y in to their hands. Learn as much about the LDS as you can from a charitable, Catholic perspective, and above all, love your wayward relative unconditionally and never cease praying for him or her! Remember Monica and her son, A ugustine.

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Faith Factory

OUTLAW

Your too dam polite Doe..

They probably mistook you for a Canadian..

........................ ...OUTLAW

John Doe

Your too dam polite Doe..

I know. It's a curse I must live with.

leec

What happens when Mormons come upon a JW household, or vice versa? Do they have some kind of armitice treaty thing that they reference quickly so as not to waste precious time preaching to the enemy?

Cthulhu

When still a Witless I actually found out where the local Mormon missionaries lived. you can probably guess what that meant. I talked to a few dozen different young men. Most dubs felt that it was a waste of time, and it was. What it basically came down to were a series of hours long discussions where we took turns trying to shatter one anothers respective faiths under the guise of being interested in what the other one had to say. While it was a lot of time spent, it did help me to see where they were coming from. That lead to me seeing that a lot of my own arguments were as foundationless as thiers and that was, in the long run, a key point that remained in my mind and helped me to get out of the dubs. My points had no foundation either.

mama1119

I have this "friend'on Facebook, that I went to school with. He has tried to convert me since high school. Since I left the JW, I have become Catholic, and boy did that tick him off. He pops up on my chat attacking Catholicism, doesn't get the hint that I am not EVER GOING TO BE A MORMON. He keeps saying..Why won't you look into my Religion...Uh..because its a cult.

JWoods

I wonder if Mitt Romney had to do this missionary thing when he was that age.

He kind of looks and acts like a grown-up Mormon missionary.

For me, there are three American religions that truly creep me out. This is one of them, the other two being the JWs and Scientology.

highdose

john doe,its a biological fact that the human ear cannot tolerant the same thing said to it in the same way in the same tone, more than three times running. After three times the brain has to back down or change request.

Snotrag

I think challenging their belief in Jesus works best and quickly. Jesus said to preach only to those who want to hear, ask them why they continue if you don't want to listen to them.

Mormons and rudeness

John Doe

lancelink

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