Jehovah's Witnesses and Calvinistic Predestination

by AllTimeJeff 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Rufus -- Welcome to the forum!

    I'm very happy that you've found a spiritual path that makes sense to you. I have done the same thing.

    It grieves me that you've escaped a cult only to fall into the deeper pit of unbelief. As the author of Hebrews exhorts: "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God," (3:12). To leave the WatchTower is only a step in the right direction if that step is toward God.

    Please don't grieve for me. I have been predestined to spend eternity in Hell, separated from God. It is his will. I am powerless to change his will and I've learned to accept this.

    -LWT

  • Rufus
    Rufus

    Stephen,

    If I may, I'd like to respond to each of the passages you cited. As a Calvinist, I interpret them differently than you do. Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I am open to correction. So far, however, I've not encountered a rival interpretation that does justice to the whole counsel of Scripture. It seems there is always a passage or two elsewhere that is sacrificed in the process. (Imagine solving one side of a Rubik's Cube at the expense of two others.)

    I will provide numerous scriptures in support of my interpretations, and I would strongly encourage you to look them up as you go. If you feel that I'm ripping any out of context, please let me know.

    1.) JOHN 3:16 -- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

    There are two things that the student of Scripture should keep in-mind, here. The first (as usual) is context. In the previous two verses, Jesus explained to Nicodemus that "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." Prior to the New Covenant, God dealt mainly with the people of Israel. When Moses lifted the serpent, it promised healing for those Hebrews who looked upon it in faith. Christ, in contrast, would provide healing not only for the Jewish people but for the Gentiles as well. That was, after all, the original plan. Through the seed of Abraham--the Father of the Jews--all nations of the earth would be blessed (Gen 22:18). Christ is that seed, and those who have faith in him are indeed Abraham's children (Gal 3:29). Therefore, Christ's statement about God's love for the world must be understood in light of Gentile inclusivity. It's not that God loves every single individual in the world without exception. Rather, that His love is now inclusive of all nations; it is not confined to ethnic Israel (cf. 1 John 2:2). And just as God had chosen a remnant among the Jews (Rom 11:1-5), so too does He choose among the Gentiles (Eph 1:3-6; 1 Pet 2:9-10).

    Second, there is nothing in this verse to suggest that all men may believe in Christ. True, English renderings like the one above may give that impression. Interestingly, the word 'whoever' does not appear in the original text. The Greek phrase is pas ho pisteuon, which literally means "all the believing ones." Whereas the English is somewhat vague and open-ended, the Greek is not. Jesus died for "all the believing ones." Scripture refers to this group as the elect (2 Tim 2:10; cf. Acts 13:48).

    As for man's ability to come to Christ, we already noted that John 3:16 is silent on that matter. Thankfully, we don't have to look far beyond it for a treatment of man's ability (or rather, inability) to believe. In the very same chapter, Jesus told Nicodemus that a person must be born again (Gk. anothen, literally "born from above") in order to see and enter the Kingom of God. Only three chapters later, we find a case in point. Some disciples who were offended by Jesus' teaching had abandoned him. Jesus offers this explanation: "The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe... This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him" (6:63-65). So you see, human beings are incapable of coming to Christ and believing in him until the Father first enables them to do so. Obviously, he doesn't enable everybody, otherwise Jesus' explanation would be in error and the point moot.

    2.) 2 PETER 3:9 -- "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

    Here, context is also very important. When Peter writes, "He is patient with you," to whom is he speaking? The introduction of the letter answers that question. "To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:" (1:1b). Clearly, Peter is writing to Christians. Specifically, he is writing to God's elect, for in the same chapter he exhorts them to make their "calling and election sure" (v. 10).

    In what way is God patient with His elect? Again, the context reveals that Peter is speaking about the day of Judgment (2:10). God is postponing the judgment, not because He is slow, but because all of the elect have not yet come to faith (e.g., John 10:16). If the Day of the Lord were to come before the elect were brought into the fold, they would be forever lost. And this cannot possibly happen, for Christ shall lose none of all that the Father has given to him (John 6:39).

    Thus, in light of the above, Peter is essentially saying: "God is patient with you [the elect], not wanting anyone [of the elect] to perish, but everyone [of the elect] to come to repentence." As Paul writes elsewhere, "everything for the sake of the elect" (2 Tim 2:10).

    3.) 1 TIMOTHY 2:3-6 -- "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time."

    Naturally, the first question one should ask is, "What is good, and pleases God our Savior?" That requires us to back-up a step. "I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness." Prayer for the poor and needy comes naturally. Prayer for rulers and those in authority--especially when such rulers are persecuting you--is decidedly unnatural. And so Paul specifically requests prayer for that class of people. The gospel isn't meant for the poor and oppressed only. God intends to save all kinds of people, from paupers to princes. Thus, the Apostle's words in verse 4 should be interpreted as all men without distinction, not all men without exception.

    The above is a typical Calvinist interpretation of the passages cited. I will neither be surprised nor offended if you happen to disagree. Hopefully, you will at least grant I have treated the text fairly and thoughtfully. By all means, correct whatever you perceive to be misinterpretations of the word.

    In Christ,

    Rufus

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    Oh, wow! I completely forgot abut this thread.

  • Rufus
    Rufus

    LWT,

    Thank you so much for the warm welcome. It is refreshing when people can disagree without being disagreeable. Regardless of our differences, I certainly respect your opinion.

    Forgive me if I don't share the conviction that you are predestined to Hell. As a Christian, there is no room in my worldview for chance. That you are here, exposed to the gospel of Christ, is not a coincidence but a divine appointment. I prefer to believe that God is drawing you to Himself and will, with your permission, pray to that end.

    Most Sincerely,

    Rufus

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Rufus -- Yes, it is indeed nice when adults can calmly discuss topics. I will certainly leave the door open to the possibility that the Lord may one day choose me. I appreciate your prayers.

  • Rufus
    Rufus
    Oh, wow! I completely forgot abut this thread.

    Hey, XJW4EVR!

    Feel free to add your thoughts. From some of the earlier posts, it sounds like we have a lot in common. :)

    In Him,

    Rufus

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello Rufus,

    Interesting post. Some good food for thought there :)

    My hunch is that the predestination/freewill conundrum cannot be resolved fully with our finite minds. That doesn't however stop us from trying!

    The pure Calvinist viewpoint raises other questions, for example why create those who are without hope Ephesians 2:12 and predestined to fall 1 Peter 2:8 ?

    Many who aren't saved take issue with the concept of a loving God creating those without hope destined for destruction.

    leavingwt I will certainly leave the door open to the possibility that the Lord may one day choose me.

    LWT, you are missing the point and are getting lost in this conundrum!

    Ephesians 1:4 (New International Version)

    4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.

    Forget if God has chosen you or not and choose Him!

    2 Corinthians 6:2 (New International Version)

    2 For he says,
    "In the time of my favor I heard you,
    and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

    See verse 6 below and more :)

    Isaiah 55 (New Inte rnational Version)

    Invitation to the Thirsty
    1 "Come, all you who are thirsty,
    come to the waters;
    and you who have no money,
    come, buy and eat!
    Come, buy wine and milk
    without money and without cost.

    2 Why spend money on what is not bread,
    and your labor on what does not satisfy?
    Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
    and your soul will delight in the richest of fare.

    3 Give ear and come to me;
    hear me, that your soul may live.
    I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
    my faithful love promised to David.

    4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples,
    a leader and commander of the peoples.

    5 Surely you will summon nations you know not,
    and nations that do not know you will hasten to you,
    because of the LORD your God,
    the Holy One of Israel,
    for he has endowed you with splendor."

    6 Seek the LORD while he may be found;
    call on him while he is near.

    7 Let the wicked forsake his way
    and the evil man his thoughts.
    Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him,
    and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

    8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways,"
    declares the LORD.

    9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    10 As the rain and the snow
    come down from heaven,
    and do not return to it
    without watering the earth
    and making it bud and flourish,
    so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,

    11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
    It will not return to me empty,
    but will accomplish what I desire
    and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

    12 You will go out in joy
    and be led forth in peace;
    the mountains and hills
    will burst into song before you,
    and all the trees of the field
    will clap their hands.

    13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
    and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
    This will be for the LORD's renown,
    for an everlasting sign,
    which will not be destroyed."

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • designs
    designs

    As with members of Cults Evangelicals and Fundamentalists find themselves in the same soup of confusing answers. Now supposedly God the Holy Ghost revealed different answers to different Church Leaders and Bishops on the same topic................hmmm sounds fishy no!

    God is portrayed as confused and or silly, and when not portrayed that way God gets the shaft for being cruel and vindictive.

    Western Christianity is it the biggest Cult hmmm.

  • XJW4EVR
    XJW4EVR

    Many who aren't saved take issue with the concept of a loving God creating those without hope destined for destruction.

    Chalam, this is just as thorny for Arminians as it is for Calvinists. You see I can ask whay would God create those who would, of their own free will, not choose God?

    Designs:

    As with members of Cults Evangelicals and Fundamentalists find themselves in the same soup of confusing answers. Now supposedly God the Holy Ghost revealed different answers to different Church Leaders and Bishops on the same topic................hmmm sounds fishy no!

    No, it doesn't. Christians (Protestants) do not claim that interpretations are inspired and inerrant, only the Bible gets thatnod.

    God is portrayed as confused and or silly, and when not portrayed that way God gets the shaft for being cruel and vindictive.

    Only by atheists, or by people that have no idea what historic Christianity teaches regarding doctrine.

    Western Christianity is it the biggest Cult hmmm.

    How do you come to the conclusion that Western Christianity is a cult? Are you saying that Eastern Orthodoxy is not a cult? This statement seems rather ambigous and not well thought out.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    XJW4EVR Chalam, this is just as thorny for Arminians as it is for Calvinists. You see I can ask whay would God create those who would, of their own free will, not choose God?

    With Arminianism, at least people get to choose their own destiny, in Calvinism they don't, they are not elected and are without hope.

    For those who might be reading this and are grappling with this thorny theological issue, once again I firmly believe salvation has nothing to do with getting to the bottom of this theological issue. Indeed, it is probably about not fully understanding it!

    What is required is that when the Lord one responds. This is faith and that is what God requires, not theological degrees or knowledge.

    Matthew 18:3 (New International Version)

    3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Mark 10:15 (New International Version)

    15 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

    Luke 18:17 (New International Version)

    17 I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

    As a side note to ex JWs (and active ones), compare the "kingdom of heaven" and the "kingdom of God" in these gospels.

    Blessings,

    Stephen

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