Is it really okay for a JW to lie?

by dissed 40 Replies latest jw friends

  • dissed
    dissed

    Carla, Chalam, Len - Thank you so much for your research. I read it carefully with my wife.

    Lying has always been part of this organization. Now its become a matter of practice for the rank and file to do it in the door work. Who more than anybody should be 'entitled' to hear the truth than householders? Ironicaly, for the sake of the 'truth', they are lied to.

    Honest questions coming from householders, DESERVE honest answers, not sly, evasive, attempts to deceive. JC set the example, and would NEVER have done what they are doing today, no matter what rationalization they give to it.

    A little more on my brother in law Elder......

    Later at a family gathering he didn't attend. His golf lie came up. All mentioned they experienced him lying ALL the time. Many of them are non-JW's and feel this is what the JW's are, coniving liars. Seeing as he is one of their better examples.

    So he thought, he was clever, trying to protect the WTS, like many JW's today do, but in reality, they are driving honest hearted people away, with their lying.

  • Chalam
    Chalam

    Hello dissed,

    Cool, keep us posted :)

    Blessings,

    Stephen

  • Billzfan23
    Billzfan23

    Yes, it's really OK for them to lie. I was born in a foreign country - lived there until I was 2 years old. Then, my family moved to the US, and I've never been back. I was an elder/theocratic min school overseer, book study conductor, etc from 2003-2006. When I left the borg at the end of 2006 and was disfellowsipped for being an apostate - my wife filed for divorce in early 2007 and tried to get full custody of my 2 kids. Her lie? She had my own JW mother write a signed affidavit to the court stating that if I were granted even shared custody of the kids - I would kidnap them and flee to to the middle eastern country where I was born. Talk about a damaging lie - it cost me thousands in legal fees to get it thrown out. Thankfully the judge could see through it and I got joint legal/joint physical custody in the end. So...yes, they can absolutely lie.

  • dissed
    dissed

    Billzfan23 -

    Sorry you had to endure that, but am VERY happy you prevailed and have shared custody of your children.

  • Fatfreek
    Fatfreek

    You're very welcome, LukeWarm.

    A Reporter's Comment from the Australian "Sunday" Program Television Show called "Silent Witnesses", which aired on Television on September 22nd, 2002 :

    "Officially, the [Jehovah's Witness] church denies all knowledge of the concept of theocratic warfare"


    Hmmmm ... Looks like yet one more lie on the tall pile of them. Let's check out some WT pubs on the term "Theocratic Warfare":

    *** w50 4/15 p. 128 Gilead Graduates More Qualified Missionaries ***
    WHEREAS we have been called in from the Canadian and American theaters of Theocratic warfare to be further trained and equipped at the Watchtower Bible School of Gilead and we desire to show our deep thankfulness and appreciation to Jehovah God and His organization for this blessed privilege of expanding our efficiency as Theocratic warriors;
    THEREFORE we, the members of the fourteenth class and of the first class of the eventful international convention year of Jehovah’s witnesses, 1950, assembled at graduating exercises at South Lansing, New York, this day of February 5, 1950, do hereby resolve and declare:

    *** w57 5/1 pp. 285-286 Use Theocratic War Strategy ***
    A WITNESS of Jehovah was going from house to house in Eastern Germany when she met a violent opposer. Knowing at once what to expect she changed her red blouse for a green one in the very next hallway. No sooner had she appeared on the street than a Communist officer asked her if she had seen a woman with a red blouse. No, she replied, and went on her way. Did she tell a lie? No, she did not. She was not a liar. Rather, she was using theocratic war strategy, hiding the truth by action and word for the sake of the ministry.
    In this she had good Scriptural precedent. Did not Rahab hide the Israelite spies by both action and word? Did not Abraham, Isaac, David and others likewise hide the truth at times when faced with a hostile enemy? They certainly did, and never do we read a word of censure for their doing so. Rather, we read of their being termed exemplary servants of Jehovah. Their actions were in line with Jesus’ wise counsel: "Look! I am sending you forth as sheep amidst wolves; therefore prove yourselves cautious as serpents and yet innocent as doves."--Matt. 10:16, NW.
    Perhaps some will wonder as to where the line is to be drawn between use of theocratic war strategy in hiding the truth and the telling of lies. First of all, let it be noted that whenever one takes an oath to tell the truth he is obligated to do so. By dedicating himself to do God’s will each Christian has taken a vow or made an oath to do God’s will and to be faithful to him. To this oath he certainly must be true. Likewise, when a Christian is placed on a witness stand he is obligated to speak the truth if he speaks at all. At times he may prefer to refuse to speak and suffer the consequences rather than betray his brothers or the interests of God’s work. And, of course, there is no occasion for use of war strategy when dealing with our Christian brothers. In dealing with them we tell the truth or tactfully remind them that what they seek to know does not concern them.
    Lies are untruths told for selfish reasons and which work injury to others. Satan told a lie to Eve that worked great harm to her and all the human race. Ananias and Sapphira told lies for selfish reasons. But hiding the truth, which he is not entitled to know, from an enemy does not harm him, especially when he would use such information to harm others who are innocent.
    A great work is being done by the witnesses even in lands where their activity is banned. The only way they can fulfill the command to preach the good news of God’s kingdom is by use of theocratic war strategy. By underground methods the literature is brought into the country and distributed. Would it make sense to hide this literature by one’s actions and then reveal its whereabouts by one’s words when queried? Of course not! So in time of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect the enemy by hiding the truth. It is done unselfishly; it does not harm anyone; on the contrary, it does much good.
    Today God’s servants are engaged in a warfare, a spiritual, theocratic warfare, a warfare ordered by God against wicked spirit forces and against false teachings. God’s servants are sent forth as sheep among wolves and therefore need to exercise the extreme caution of serpents so as to protect properly the interests of God’s kingdom committed to them. At all times they must be very careful not to divulge any information to the enemy that he could use to hamper the preaching work.

    *** w83 7/15 p. 19 par. 13 Walking With God in a Violent World ***
    Jesus thus made it plain that theocratic warfare from that time on was not to include the use of carnal weapons.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    The witlesses are allowed, and supposed, to lie when they are trying to ensnare another person into the cancer. Or, when winning court cases that could affect how many people they recruit. Or, when they are defending pedophiles and preventing major embarrassments from hitting the mainstream. Or, when they are compiling field circus reports and counting all the fake time slips. And making arithmetic and counting "errors" on those time slips so they can get 7.3 million when the honest total would be somewhere between 2 and 2.5 million.

  • Open mind
    Open mind

    It's NEVER OK for a JW to lie.

    Just like Bill Clinton did not have sexual relations with that woman.

    When a JW lies, it's not called a lie, because the Watchtower has full authority to change the meaning of any word it chooses. "Generation" is a great example of WT re-writing the english language.

    om

  • Scully
    Scully

    They do it all the time. They are encouraged to do it by the WTS. Think about the strategies that are used in Field Service™ to Overcome Objections™.

    Is it true that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they are the only ones who will survive Armageddon™? Among JWs, the answer is "Yes". But what are they supposed to say when they are going Door-To-Door™? They are supposed to say "That isn't for us to decide, only God can read peoples' hearts and determine whether they will survive" or something to that effect.

    When faced with pointed questions from someone who is Studying™ with JWs, they avoid answering the questions. For example, if the Student™ were to say something like "I heard that I will have to limit contact with my friends and family if I become a Jehovah's Witness, what is that about?" The JW will respond by saying that they can associate with anyone they choose. This is very subtle, because it gives the impression that the JWs have freedom to mingle with anyone without reprisal, while in reality when someone is No Longer One Of Jehovah's Witnesses™ (having been Disfellowshipped™ or Disassociated™) they cannot have free association without risking the consequence of being Disfellowshipped™, even when a family member is involved. As well, when someone is considered to be Weak In The Truth™ or Bad Association™ JWs are strongly encouraged to limit association with them, and often choose to do just that. So, using the phrase anyone we choose is in fact very misleading, because it gives false reassurance to the individual asking the question.

    Another instance where dual word meanings came into play was in the mid-90s, when Bulgaria was denying JWs application to become a bona fide religious organization in that country (with all the Government benefit$ therein entailed), due to JWs blood transfusion policy. The government stated, in essence, that in the case of minor children, parents could not be pressured by the organization to withhold medical treatments that could save a child's life. In an amazing statement before the European Commission on Human Rights, the WTS claimed that the Society would not sanction any member who allowed a blood transfusion for themselves or their children.

    "The applicant undertook with regard to its stance on blood transfusions to draft a statement for inclusion in its statute providing that members should have free choice in the matter for themselves and their children, without any control or sanction on the part of the association." (Emphasis added)

    "Sanction" is an interesting word. Of its various meanings, two are diametrically opposed to each other. One meaning entails a punitive measure against an individual, organization, or even a nation as a matter of disagreement on principles (think: trade sanctions). The other meaning refers to an authoritative body allowing an activity (such as: the Province of Ontario sanctions - i.e., allows - gay marriage).

    In this instance, the European Commission on Human Rights determined that the wording meant that there would be no punitive measures taken against members of Jehovah's Witnesses who accepted blood transfusions for themselves or on behalf of their minor children, and therefore granted the WTS's petition to receive legal status as a religion in Bulgaria. In truth, the WTS put in place a policy that basically automatically terminated a JW's membership should they voluntarily accept a blood transfusion for themselves or for their children. You see, they decided that a person could Disassociate™ themselves by virtue of their actions, no longer would a letter be required for a JW to Disassociate™ him or herself. The action itself was taken as an automatic voluntary termination of membership initiated by the member him or herself, and therefore met with the criteria that the WTS was not taking "punitive measures" (sanctions) against an individual for exercising their free choice in the matter of blood transfusions.

    This is also why the trend is not to Disfellowship™ people publicly, but to announce that So-and-So Is No Longer One Of Jehovah's Witnesses™. There is a lack of clarity as to whether the individual has been removed by the so-called authority of a Judicial Committee™ or whether the individual Disassociated™ voluntarily (either by their actions or in writing).

    The WTS thrives on this kind of double-talk and ambiguity. But it's not "lying" if the person "misunderstands" the meaning that is really intended.

    Why do you think the Legal Department at WT-HQ is so very much alive-and-well?

  • Fatfreek
    Fatfreek

    Hi Scully,

    Wow, what an excellent treatise on the subtle techniques they use to push and shove and otherwise manipulate un-truth soas to appear truthful. That makes this thread a keeper for me. Oh, and say hello to that funny and burly guy of yours in that big and beautiful city of yours. We'll never forget our bread-breaking together.

    Len

  • Scully
    Scully

    Hi Len,

    I will pass along your greetings to the Big Guy, we both enjoyed our time with you and yours.

    One thing that I forgot to mention in my post was to reiterate the definition that the WTS uses with regard to lying, which carla posted above:

    While malicious lying is definitely condemned in the Bible, this does not mean that a person is under obligation to divulge truthful information to people who are not entitled to it.

    This definition was used in the Insight volumes, and prior to that appeared in the Aid to Bible Understanding reference manual. It was such an earth shattering realization for both me and Mr Scully that the Society actively practiced and encouraged JWs to practice deception - it was one of the final straws for me, and definitely a turning point for Mr Scully too.

    The question for me became "who is entitled to the truth?" We knew that people on the outside of the Organization™ weren't entitled to the truth. They were our enemies, because they were touted as enemies of Jehovah and Jesus. We were taught that the government and its authority figures - because they would one day turn on Jehovah's people and throw us all in prison - weren't entitled to the truth. Even within the Organzation™, we had to be vigilant about Apostates™ and false friends - they weren't entitled to the truth. Our children had to be taught to lie because heaven forbid they go to kindergarden and blurt out that all their classmates were going to be destroyed because they sang Christmas songs and did birthdays; we had to soft-peddle the reality of the JW belief system to them, so they weren't entitled to the truth either. Finally, after some very negative interactions with the congregation when I was ill and the resulting rumor-mongering and character assassination instigated by the Elders™ and Pioneers™, I came to the realization that as far as the Watchtower Society was concerned, not even I was entitled to the truth. They were willing to lie about me and to me, without reservations or apologies, to maintain the upper hand. That was the end for me.

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