What did Jesus mean by "this generation"?

by Doug Mason 37 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  frankiespeakin

  PSac,

  Was it literal? was if figurative? did he even say it ?

  Good question? When we consider that Jesus "words" were spoken to a bunch of unlettered men who didn't even read nor write and the gospels were written decades of years latter.

  We have the very real problem of accurate recall and misunderstanding of what was actually said. And we all know what happens when we pass on verbal data in a group and how it gets distorted the more links in chain the verbal message has to go through or the longer the time is from the initial message to the time it gets written down.

  Of course many simply rely on the assumption that holy spirit guaranteed that the message would be unchanged a leave it at that. Add to this that these gospels were written down after 70 ce we have the very real problem of writing this down as a prophecy after the fact and pawning it off as a prediction that was fulfilled.

  http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/matthew.html

  Beare offers the following to date the Gospel of Matthew (op. cit., pp. 7-8):

  It is generally agreed that it was written after the fall of Jerusalem to the armies of Titus (AD 70), and the widespread acquaintance with it which is exhibited in all the Christian literature of the second century makes it difficult to place its composition any later than the opening decade of that century. If the Sermon on the Mount can be regarded in any sense as 'the Christian answer to Jamnia. . . a kind of Christian mishnaic counterpart to the formulation taking place there' (Davies, Setting, p. 315), this would indicate a date a few years before or after the turn of the century.

  Concerning the knowledge of the fall of Jerusalem that the author evinces, Schweizer writes concerning Matthew 22:7 (op. cit., p. 418):

  The wrath of the host is mentioned by both evangelists, but it is impossible to conceive of the king coming with his army not only to slay those who had been invited but to burn down their city (not "cities"), and doing all this while the feast stands ready for the newly invited. The parable deals with ordinary citizens, who buy fields and use oxen, not with men who rule entire cities. After his punishment, furthermore, the verdict of the king in verse 8 is pointless. Verses 6-7 are thus clearly an interpolation in the narrative, which earlier passed directly from verse 5 to the wrath of the king (beginning of vs. 7), and then to verse 8. Here the events of A.D. 70 - the taking and burning of Jerusalem by Roman armies - have colored the language of the parable.
• 

  PSacramento

  Frankie,

  It was a common theme in earky church writings that Jesus would come, sooner rather than later.

  I think it was the enthusiam and the desire for a better world that drove some to hope for things that perhaps were never really said in the way people hoped they were said.

  When Jesus said the "kingdom of God is within you", he wasn't just whistling dixie, He wanted them to understand that God was in them ( via the HS) and that it was up to THEM to make a "kingdome on earth" and that God would work through them.

  Sure its a lot easier to have God do it for us and one can see how that view was more appealing and caught on quicker.
• 

  agonus

  Whatever he meant, one word I'm convinced he DIDN'T mean is "overlap"...
• 

  PSacramento

  agonus,

  No, he didn't mean overlap and he certainly did mean "this".

  LOL !!
• 

  Doug Mason

  Thank you all for your kind comments.

  TD, if you have suggestions how I may improve the wording of the questions, I would appreciate your thoughts. To help prevent any misapplication of the word genea, I deliberately provided the context in which it was used.

  Chalam, you say you are sitting on the "trib" fence. Maybe you need to add a further dimension to your fence and ask whether there is to be a future "trib". Perhaps you could research the origins of that idea in recent centuries. Maybe also research Historicism and its alternatives. Another aspect you could research is how the primitive Christians viewed the term "last days". (Sounds like the subject for a future thread). Do you think people are attracted to applying end-time eschatology to their own day because they fear their own death? Did you see my previous post "Christ is Coming Soon", where I show that people in the 19th century did exactly the same thing as people are doing today, such as setting dates for Christ's return? http://www.jwstudies.com/Christ_is_Coming_Very_Soon.pdf

  AuntBee, that book "Last day Madness" sounds interesting. I will have to investigate. How many people's lives are hampered this?

  Once more to everyone, I appreciate your comments.

  Doug
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Doug,

  I am certainly of the "great tribulation" is on the way, there is no way is has come to pass already.

  I saw the other thread. No dates from the WT recently :( but other will fill the void.

  So did you see this?

  34 I tell you the truth, this generation[ a ] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

  Interesting footnote in the NIV :)

  Footnotes:

  1. Matthew 24:34 Or race

  Yes, the nation of Israel has not passed away, it was scattered across the globe and has returned, just as the bible prophesied.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  JosephMalik

  I am certainly of the "great tribulation" is on the way, there is no way is has come to pass already.

  34 I tell you the truth, this generation[ a ] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

  Interesting footnote in the NIV :)

  Footnotes:

  1. Matthew 24:34 Or race

  Chalam or Stephen,

  True the great tribulation has not come to pass already and we all have been living in it since birth. If we drop the idea of a fulfillment in the year 70 just because it seems to fit the description given by Luke we would learn that the great tribulation (Matt) or affliction (Mark) began with sin and ends or reaches its worst part or the part that interests us when our Lord returns in the clouds with his angels. This is not a game where we can match a word used in other texts to get the answer in time as if such a method has merit in this case. This is also true of the expression this generation. Each text has its own application. All this has been called the Gentile Times in Luke which term simply embraced the descriptions given in Matt and Mark regarding this generation. When during these Gentile Times (another use of words describing the same this generation) occur? Well we will have to wait and see but since our Lord has not returned yet we know that this tribulation is still ongoing and/or the Gentile Times are still with us as is the race of Israel along with other races that that make up humanity derived from Adam. Simply looking at the word in Strongs we get:

  AV-generation 37, time 2, age 2, nation 1; 42

  1) fathered, birth, nativity
  2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
  2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy 2b) metaph. a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
  2b1) esp. in a bad sense, a perverse nation
  3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
  4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied by each successive generation), a space of 30-33 years

  So while the word generation could mean a few short years, it can also mean a long time even going back to the garden of Eden itself and continuing while we search for its conclusion. Each text in which it is used has its own application and context (surrounding texts) that determine which definition is meant. In this case since we have multiple and parallel Gospels that discuss it using different words and historical markers like the words in Daniel so because of this we can exclude things like 70C E which most seem to like but confuses the literal and human return of Christ in the prophecies and replace it with an invisible and non-human presence the way the WT and some others do.

  Joseph
• 

  villabolo

  No Chalam, "This generation" does not mean race nor was this scripture fulfilled in AD 70. That is Jehovah's Witness like logic meant to cover up the fact that Jesus was a false prophet.

  PSacramento: "Was it literal? was if figurative? did he even say it ?"

  He may have said this. It sounds like a Jesus original describing the end as imminent. Those scriptures that describe the end as indefinite are probably later add ons that late first century Christians inserted after Christianity had been disappointed, particularly when the events of Jerusalems downfall in AD 70 did not bring total apocalypse. By the way, Jesus seemed like the literal type.

  This follows an analogy with Jehovah's Witnesses and the dynamics of rationalization of any apocalyptic religion after it faces reality.

  villabolo
• 

  JimmyPage

  I loves me some Doug Mason. Your threads have opened my eyes and freed my mind from the WT's BS so often it's not even funny. So simple, so clear. Keep up the excellent work! I recommend all newbies go back and look at Doug's past threads. I particularly enjoyed the one about the sign of Matthew 24.
• 

  JimmyPage

  This is the one I'm referencing:

  Wars, earthquakes and famines are not signs of the end 2 3 4 5 6