Are only Christians of good morals ?

by wobble 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • wobble

    This thread is prompted by the direction my other thread took, the one about "where was God..."

    On that thread LWT posted a quote from Ann Coulter about how superior were Christians because they don't kill babies (Abortion) they don't kill old people (Euthanasia) and they don't do this or that.

    It is the same attitude that seems to permeate the "christian" sects, we have everything right and only we are moral. ( Of course this attitude is extreme in the Cults, like the JW's/WT where all "worldly" people are in thrall to Satan)

    You who do not have the same blind faith, must be baby-killing ,drug taking ,killers of the elderly and down-right spawn of Satan.

    It never occurs to these self-righteous ,blinkered, people that it is not only possible to have a moral compass, and not believe in God ,Jesus or the bible, it is PREFERABLE !

    Why preferable ?

    Because if you have to only refrain from doing evil because you think Sky Daddy is watching, if you only refrain from evil because some dodgy scripture tells you, or more likely someone elses interpretation of scripture, you have no personally, independently developed moral compass or code.

    When those restraints are removed you will behave in a disgusting manner ,because you can , and because you have nothing stronger than your imaginary restraints.

    Someone who has moral standards that come from them, cannot go against them without denying, and destroying what he/she is.

    There are many Humanists who adhere to very high moral standards .

    The scriptures, and the God they reveal have been used to justify the Crusades and their bloody massacres, Slavery , Apartheid, cruelty to women, and the Holocaust. The terrible list is longer than that.

    Christians went along with these things because they had no independent moral compass.

    Ergo, christians are immoral. So don't be so smug.



  • Elsewhere

    I always enjoy it when a die-hard religious person finds out that I'm an atheist.

    They always say: "You seem so nice [Elsewhere], how could you be an atheist?!?!"

    I reply: "You seem nice too, I'm surprised that you could be a [insert religion]!"

    Once I say that, they quickly realize just how absurd and inappropriate their comment about my being an atheist was.

  • snowbird

    The link:

    Judge for yourselves whether any mention is made of Christian "superiority."


  • leavingwt
    Are only Christians of good morals?

    IMHO, the Fundamentalist must answer this question in the affirmative.

  • snowbird
    Christianity is also the hardest religion in the world because, if you believe Christ died for your sins and rose from the dead, you have no choice but to give your life entirely over to Him. No more sexual promiscuity, no lying, no cheating, no stealing, no killing inconvenient old people or unborn babies -- no doing what all the other kids do.

    Her point is that living a Christ-centered life does not allow room for such things.

    There are plenty who have never heard of Jesus Christ who also refrain from such vices, but Ms. Coulter is discussing Christians.


  • dgp

    I like this one. A long time ago, this pagan emperor persecuted the Christians because he thought they were a danger to the empire and to morals. Yep, that's right: to morals. Many hundreds of years after his death, he still gathers respect. His name was Marcus Aurelius Antonius Augustus, emperor of Rome. Wikipedia hast his about him:

    Legacy and reputation

    Marcus Aurelius took on the reputation of a philosopher king within his lifetime, and the title would remain his after death; both Dio and the biographer call him "the philosopher". [ 258 ] Christians—Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Melito—gave him the title too. [ 259 ] The last named went so far as to call Marcus "more philantrophic and philosophic" than Pius and Hadrian, and set him against the persecuting and philosophy-hating Emperors Domitian and Nero to make the contrast bolder. [ 260 ]

    This very good man proves that you don't have to be a Christian to have good morals. So does Socrates, by the way.

    Now, let us talk about some other fine fellows. The bad reputation that accompanies these God-loving and God-fearing men falls primarily over the Catholic Church. It is conveniently forgotten that there were no other Christian churches at the time (whatever the Witnesses say about that). Let's see what the Wikipedia says these good and pious men did during the first crusade:


    Further information: Siege of Jerusalem (1099)#Massacre The Siege of Jerusalem, as depicted in a medieval manuscript

    The massacre which followed the capture of Jerusalem has attained particular notoriety, as a "juxtaposition of extreme violence and anguished faith". [ 88 ] The eyewitness accounts from the crusaders themselves leave little doubt that there was great slaughter in the aftermath of the siege. Nevertheless, the scale of the massacre has generally been exaggerated in later medieval sources, partly as a result of propaganda in Muslim sources, and partly as a result of the misinterpretation of the Crusaders' resort to apocalyptic language to describe the scenes. [ 87 ] It should also be remembered [citation needed] that massacre, repugnant though it might be, was an integral part of war throughout the ancient and medieval period. Contemporary Muslim reactions to the massacre were muted, when compared to later polemics on the subject. [ 87 ]

    After the successful assault on the northern wall, the defenders fled to the Temple Mount, pursued by Tancred and his men. Arriving before the defenders could secure the area, Tancred's men assaulted the precint, butchering many of the defenders, with the remainder taking refuge in the Al-Aqsa Mosque. Tancred then called a halt to the slaughter, offering those in the mosque his protection. [ 87 ] When the defenders on the southern wall heard of the fall of the northern wall, they fled to the citadel, allowing Raymond and the Provencals to enter the city. Iftikhar al-Dawla, the commander of the garrison, struck a deal with Raymond, surrendering the citadel in return for being granted safe passage to Ascalon. [ 87 ] The slaughter continued for the rest of the day; Muslims were indiscriminately killed, and Jews who had taken refuge in their synagogue were murdered when it was burnt down by the Crusaders. The following day, in a particularly cold-blooded atrocity, Tancred's prisoners in the mosque were slaughtered. Nevertheless, it is clear that some Muslims and Jews survived the massacre, either escaping or being taken prisoner to be ransomed. [ 87 ] The Eastern Christian population of the city had been expelled before the siege by the governor, and thus escaped the massacre. [ 87 ]

    And, before we go too far, let's look at one comment by the Wikipedist:

    that massacre, repugnant though it might be, was an integral part of war throughout the ancient and medieval period

    That's less of massacre, right? A good massacre, after all.

    Any comments?

  • wobble

    "Miss Coulter is discussing Christians", but with a throw away remark "Is Buddhism about forgiveness ?" she dismisses a valid moral code as not up to the christian standard, ignoring what Buddhism is all about, wisdom and compassion.

    The problem comes from such attitudes, repeated it is true by Muslim fundamentalists, that they are right and have, as Dylan said "God on their side"

    Everyone else is wrong and evil, even liberals it would seem.

    Jesus said "By their fruits you will know them" above "dgp" has shown the fruits of so-called christian morality. It did not spring from a moral compass from within the Crusaders, but from their religious leaders (Pope Urban etc.) and from their religion.

    The writer of the Letters of John said "God is Love" , was he wrong ? if he is right then God is not Jesus , not YHWH, but Love that comes from within man and women, and when it is not there, as in any immoral act, God is not there also. when love is present in what we do , or do not do, there is the

    True God.



  • jambon1

    All the 'christians' I know have an inordinate interest in everyone elses sex lives.

    Have you ever considered taking part in gay sex?

    Are you into oral sex?

    Did you pet her breasts?

    How long for?

    Did you do anal?

    Who made the 1st step into the 'genital' area?

    * All questions asked by 35-65 year old men at judicial comittee(s).

    Who really are the perverts? The people who have a healthy sex life or those 3 middle aged men who ask probing questions of an 19 year old girl?


    They're sick in the mind.

  • dgp

    Well, since someone mentioned Buddhism, I thought of things Oriental, and remembered this guy (Wikipedia, too):

    Confucius (Chinese: ? ? ; pinyin: Kong zi; Wade-Giles: K'ung-tzu, or Chinese: ??? ; pinyin: Kong Fuzi; Wade-Giles: K'ung-fu-tzu), literally "Master Kong," [ 1 ] (traditionally September 28, 551 BCE – 479 BCE) [ 2 ] [ 3 ] was a Chinese thinker and social philosopher, whose teachings and philosophy have deeply influenced Chinese, Korean, Japanese and Vietnamese thought and life.

    His philosophy emphasized personal and governmentalmorality, correctness of social relationships, justice and sincerity. These values gained prominence in China over other doctrines, such as Legalism (??) or Taoism (??) during the Han Dynasty [ 4 ] [ 5 ] [ 6 ] (206 BCE – 220 CE). Confucius' thoughts have been developed into a system of philosophy known as Confucianism (??). It was introduced to Europe by the ItalianJesuitMatteo Ricci, who was the first to Latinise the name as "Confucius."

    Wasn't it Gandhi who said " "I like your Christ. "I don't like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

    Let me just add this pearl, found in Numbers 31 (NWT, by the way):

    1 Jehovah then spoke to Moses, saying: 2 “Take vengeance for the sons of Israel upon the Mid´i·an·ites. Afterward you will be gathered to your people.”

    3 So Moses spoke to the people, saying: “Equip men from among YOU for the army, that they may serve against Mid´i·an to execute Jehovah’s vengeance upon Mid´i·an. 4 A thousand of each tribe of all the tribes of Israel YOU will send into the army.” 5 Accordingly from the thousands of Israel a thousand were assigned of a tribe, twelve thousand equipped for the army.

    6 Then Moses sent them out, a thousand of each tribe, to the army, them and Phin´e·has the son of El·e·a´zar the priest to the army, and the holy utensils and the trumpets for blowing calls were in his hand. 7 And they went waging war against Mid´i·an, just as Jehovah had commanded Moses, and they proceeded to kill every male. 8 And they killed the kings of Mid´i·an along with the others slain, namely, E´vi and Re´kem and Zur and Hur and Re´ba, the five kings of Mid´i·an; and they killed Ba´laam the son of Be´or with the sword. 9 But the sons of Israel carried off the women of Mid´i·an and their little ones captive; and all their domestic animals and all their livestock and all their means of maintenance they plundered. 10 And all their cities in which they had settled and all their walled camps they burned with fire. 11 And they went taking all the spoil and all the booty in the way of humans and domestic animals. 12 And they came bringing to Moses and El·e·a´zar the priest and to the assembly of the sons of Israel the captives and the booty and the spoil, to the camp, to the desert plains of Mo´ab, which are by the Jordan at Jer´i·cho.

    13 Then Moses and El·e·a´zar the priest and all the chieftains of the assembly went out to meet them outside the camp. 14 And Moses grew indignant at the appointed men of the combat forces, the chiefs of the thousands and the chiefs of the hundreds who were coming in from the military expedition. 15 So Moses said to them: “Have YOU preserved alive every female? 16 Look! They are the ones who, by Ba´laam’s word, served to induce the sons of Israel to commit unfaithfulness toward Jehovah over the affair of Pe´or, so that the scourge came upon the assembly of Jehovah. 17 And now kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has had intercourse with man by lying with a male. 18 And preserve alive for yourselves all the little ones among the women who have not known the act of lying with a male.

    Whatever happened to the women who had not known the act of lying with a male? Did they ever get to know the act?

  • WTWizard

    You will find good people doing good things, with or without religion. You will also find bad people doing vile things.

    However, it takes religion to make good people do vile things.

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