Nearly 100 years of Devil's "short period of time" (Rev 12:12) - Ridiculous!

by yadda yadda 2 18 Replies latest watchtower bible

yadda yadda 2

I was reading this article on http://www.watchman.org/jw/1914hst1.htm and this paragraph struck me as particularly interesting:
"Apparently the Society feels that the judgment period has stretched too far. Its been over 80 years since the judgment began in 1914. They are now saying the Bible, "does not show that such judging would continue over an "extended period of many years" (Watchtower, 15 October 1995, p. 22). So the Society now says that Christ sat down as King in 1914, but he did not sit down as Judge in that year. "Although Jesus is now King of the Kingdom, his further activity mentioned in Matthew 19:28 will include sitting on a throne to judge during the Millennium. At that time he will judge all mankind. . ." (Watchtower, 15 October 1995, p. 21). So the sheep and goats judgment is not current since 1914, it is the future - during the Millennium."
So in this 15 October 1995 Watchtower article the Society dramatically reinterpreted Jesus judgment as no longer starting in 1914 because the bible does not show that such judging would continue over an "extended period of many years." (If someone can post the entire article that would be very useful, thanks.)
Why is 80 years or more regarded as a scripturally unjustifiable "extended period of many years" for the period of judgment by Jesus, and yet it is not an unjustifiable "extended period of many years" for the Devil's "short period of time" after his being hurled from heaven per Revelation 12:12?
It's been nearly 100 years (since 1914-18) of the Devil's supposed "short period of time" so why is that not also considered to be an "extended period of many years" not supported by the bible? What is the difference? If by 1995 it was decided that it was too long a period of time for Jesus to have been "judging" since 1914 then why is it not too long for Satan's "short period of time"?
There is absolutely nothing in Revelation 12 to support the idea that the "short period of time"(v.12) would be for an "extended period of many years" any more than the judging by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-33 would be for an "extended period of many years." Yet JW's don't even bat an eyelid at this contradiction.
Aussie Oz

looks like part of the jigsaw to show how the WT is slowly backing away from 1914. On its own it is not much, but put them all on a page and my what a pattern it shows.

How
WillYouStandBeforetheJudgment
Seat?
“When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.”—MATTHEW 25:31.
‘GUILTY OR INNOCENT?’ Many wonder as they hear reports about some court case. Judges and jury members may try to be honest, but does justice usually prevail? Have you not heard of injustice and inequities in the judicial process? Such injustice is not new, as we see in Jesus’ illustration found at Luke 18:1-8.
2
Whatever your experience with human justice, note Jesus’ conclusion: “Shall not God cause justice to be done for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night . . . ? I tell you, He will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?”
3
Yes, Jehovah will see that his servants finally receive justice. Jesus is involved, too, especially now because we are living in “the last days” of the present wicked system. Jehovah will soon use his powerful Son to wipe wickedness off the earth. (2 Timothy 3:1; 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8; Revelation 19:11-16) We can gain insight into Jesus’ role from one of the last illustrations he gave, often called the parable of the sheep and the goats.
4
We have long felt that the parable depicted Jesus’ sitting down as King in 1914 and since then making judgments—everlasting life for people proving to be like sheep, permanent death for the goats. But a reconsideration of the parable points to an adjusted understanding of its timing and what it illustrates. This refinement reinforces the importance of our preaching work and the significance of people’s response. To see the basis for this deeper understanding of the parable, let us consider what the Bible shows about Jehovah and Jesus, both as Kings and as Judges.
Jehovah
astheSupreme
Judge
5
Jehovah rules the universe with power over all. Having no beginning and no end, he is “King of eternity.” (1 Timothy 1:17; Psalm 90:2, 4; Revelation 15:3) He has authority to make statutes, or laws, and to enforce these. But his authority includes being a Judge. Isaiah 33:22 says: “Jehovah is our Judge, Jehovah is our Statute-giver, Jehovah is our King; he himself will save us.”
6
God’s servants have long recognized Jehovah as the Judge of cases and issues. For example, after “the Judge of all the earth” had weighed the evidence about the wickedness of Sodom and Gomorrah, he both judged that the inhabitants merited destruction and enforced that righteous judgment. (Genesis 18:20-33; Job 34:10-12) How it should reassure us to know that Jehovah is a righteous Judge who can always carry out his judgments!
7
In ancient Israel, Jehovah sometimes rendered judgment directly. Would you not have been comforted back then to know that a perfect Judge was deciding matters? (Leviticus 24:10-16; Numbers 15:32-36; 27:1-11) God also provided “judicial decisions” that were altogether good as standards for judging. (Leviticus 25:18, 19; Nehemiah 9:13; Psalm 19:9, 10; 119:7, 75, 164; 147:19, 20) He is “Judge of all the earth,” so all of us are affected.—Hebrews 12:23.
8
We have “eyewitness” testimony bearing on this matter. The prophet Daniel was given a vision of ferocious beasts that stood for governments or empires. (Daniel 7:1-8, 17) He added: “There were thrones placed and the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was white just like snow.” (Daniel 7:9) Note that Daniel saw thrones “and the Ancient of Days [Jehovah] satdown.” Ask yourself, ‘Was Daniel here witnessing God’s becoming King?’
9
Well, when we read that someone “sat down” on a throne, we might think of his becoming a king, for the Bible sometimes uses such language. For example: “When [Zimri] began to reign, as soon as he sat down upon his throne, he . . .” (1 Kings 16:11; 2 Kings 10:30; 15:12; Jeremiah 33:17) A Messianic prophecy said: “He must sitdownandruleonhisthrone.” Hence, to ‘sit on a throne’ can mean to become king. (Zechariah 6:12, 13) Jehovah is described as a King who sits on a throne. (1 Kings 22:19; Isaiah 6:1; Revelation 4:1-3) He is “King of eternity.” Yet, as he asserted a new aspect of sovereignty, he could be said to have become King, as if sitting down on his throne anew.—1 Chronicles 16:1, 31; Isaiah 52:7; Revelation 11:15-17; 15:3; 19:1, 2, 6.
10
But here is a key point: A prime function of ancient kings was that of hearing cases and rendering judgments. (Proverbs 29:14) Recall Solomon’s wise judgment when two women claimed the same baby. (1 Kings 3:16-28; 2 Chronicles 9:8) One of his governmental buildings was “the Porch of the Throne where he would do judging,” also called “the porch of judgment.” (1 Kings 7:7) Jerusalem was described as the place where “the thrones for judgment have been sitting.” (Psalm 122:5) Clearly, ‘sitting down on a throne’ can also mean exercising judicial authority.—Exodus 18:13; Proverbs 20:8.
11
Now let us return to the scene where Daniel saw ‘the Ancient of Days sitdown.’ Daniel 7:10 adds: “The Court took its seat, and there were books that were opened.” Yes, the Ancient of Days was sitting to render judgment about world domination and to judge the Son of man as worthy to rule. (Daniel 7:13, 14) Then we read that “the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones,” those judged fit to rule with the Son of man. (Daniel 7:22) Finally “the Court itself proceeded to sit” and render adverse judgment on the last world power.—Daniel 7:26.
12
Consequently, Daniel’s seeing God ‘sit on a throne’ meant His coming to render judgment. Earlier David sang: “You [Jehovah] have executed my judgment and my cause; you have sat on the throne judging with righteousness.” (Psalm 9:4, 7) And Joel wrote: “Let the nations be aroused and come up to the low plain of Jehoshaphat; for there I [Jehovah] shall sit in order to judge all the nations.” (Joel 3:12; compare Isaiah 16:5.) Both Jesus and Paul were in judicial situations in which a human sat to hear a case and render judgment.—John 19:12-16; Acts 23:3; 25:6.
Jesus’
Position
13
Jehovah is both King and Judge. What of Jesus? The angel announcing his birth said: “Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, . . . and there will be no end of his kingdom.” (Luke 1:32, 33) Jesus would be permanent heir of the Davidic kingship. (2 Samuel 7:12-16) He would rule from heaven, for David said: “The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord [Jesus] is: ‘Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.’ The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, saying: ‘Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.’”—Psalm 110:1-4.
14
When would that be? Jesus did not rule as King while a human. (John 18:33-37) In 33 C.E., he died, was resurrected, and ascended to heaven. Hebrews 10:12 says: “This man offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually and sat down at the right hand of God.” What authority did Jesus have? “[God] seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . and made him head over all things to the congregation.” (Ephesians 1:20-22) Because Jesus then had kingly authority over Christians, Paul could write that Jehovah “delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love.”—Colossians 1:13; 3:1.
15
At that time, however, Jesus did not act as King and Judge over the nations. He was seated next to God, awaiting the time to act as King of God’s Kingdom. Paul wrote of him: “With reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: ‘Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet’?”—Hebrews 1:13.
16
Jehovah’s Witnesses have published much evidence that Jesus’ period of waiting expired in 1914, when he became ruler of God’s Kingdom in the invisible heavens. Revelation 11:15, 18 says: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” “But the nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came.” Yes, the nations expressed wrath toward one another during World War I. (Luke 21:24) The wars, earthquakes, pestilences, food shortages, and the like, that we have seen since 1914 confirm that Jesus is now ruling in God’s Kingdom, and the world’s final end is near.—Matthew 24:3-14.
17
By way of a brief review: God can be said to sit on a throne as King, but in another sense he can sit down on his throne to judge. In 33 C.E., Jesus sat at God’s right hand, and he is now King of the Kingdom. But does Jesus, now reigning as King, also serve as Judge? And why should this concern us, especially at this time?
18
Jehovah, who has the right to appoint judges, chose Jesus as a Judge meeting His standards. Jesus showed this when speaking about people becoming spiritually alive: “The Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son.” (John 5:22) Yet, Jesus’ judicial role goes beyond that kind of judging, for he is judge of the living and of the dead. (Acts 10:42; 2 Timothy 4:1) Paul once declared: “[God] has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man [Jesus] whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him.”—Acts 17:31; Psalm 72:2-7.
19
Are we thus justified in concluding that Jesus sits down on a glorious throne in the specific role of Judge? Yes. Jesus told the apostles: “In the re-creation, when theSonofmansitsdownuponhisgloriousthrone, you who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28) Although Jesus is now King of the Kingdom, his further activity mentioned at Matthew 19:28 will include sitting on a throne to judge during the Millennium. At that time he will judge all mankind, the righteous and the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15) It is helpful to keep this in mind as we turn our attention to one of Jesus’ parables that relates to our time and to our lives.
What
DoestheParable
Say?
20
Shortly before Jesus died, his apostles asked him: “When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) Jesus foretold significant developments on earth before ‘the end would come.’ Shortly before that end, the nations will “see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”—Matthew 24:14, 29, 30.
21
How, though, will people in those nations fare when the Son of man arrives in his glory? Let us find out from the parable of the sheep and the goats, which begins with the words: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him.”—Matthew 25:31, 32.
22
Does this parable apply when Jesus sat down in kingly power in 1914, as we have long understood? Well, Matthew 25:34 does speak of him as King, so the parable logically finds application since Jesus became King in 1914. But what judging did he do soon thereafter? It was not a judging of “all the nations.” Rather, he turned his attention to those claiming to make up “thehouseofGod.” (1 Peter 4:17) In line with Malachi 3:1-3, Jesus, as Jehovah’s messenger, judicially inspected the anointed Christians remaining on earth. It was also time for judicial sentence on Christendom, who falsely claimed to be “the house of God.” (Revelation 17:1, 2; 18:4-8) Yet nothing indicates that at that time, or for that matter since, Jesus sat to judge people of allthenations finally as sheep or goats.
23
If we analyze Jesus’ activity in the parable, we observe him finally judging allthenations. The parable does not show that such judging would continue over an extended period of many years, as if every person dying during these past decades were judged worthy of everlasting death or everlasting life. It seems that the majority who have died in recent decades have gone to mankind’s common grave. (Revelation 6:8; 20:13) The parable, though, depicts the time when Jesus judges the people of “all the nations” who are then alive and facing the execution of his judicial sentence.
24
In other words, the parable points to the future when the Son of man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgment will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time “the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one” will have been clearly established. (Malachi 3:18) The actual pronouncing and executing of judgment will be carried out in a limited time. Jesus will render just decisions based on what has become evident about individuals.—See also 2 Corinthians 5:10.
25
This means, then, that Jesus’ ‘sitting down on his glorious throne’ for judgment, mentioned at Matthew 25:31, applies to the future point when this powerful King will sit down to pronounce and execute judgment on the nations. Yes, the judgment scene that involves Jesus at Matthew 25:31-33, 46 is comparable to the scene in Daniel chapter 7, where the reigning King, the Ancient of Days, sat down to carry out his role as Judge.
26
Understanding the parable of the sheep and the goats in this way indicates that the rendering of judgment on the sheep and the goats is future. It will take place after “the tribulation” mentioned at Matthew 24:29, 30 breaks out and the Son of man ‘arrives in his glory.’ (Compare Mark 13:24-26.) Then, with the entire wicked system at its end, Jesus will hold court and render and execute judgment.—John 5:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
27
This clarifies our understanding of the timing of Jesus’ parable, which shows when the sheep and the goats will be judged. But how does it affect us who are zealously preaching the Kingdom good news? (Matthew 24:14) Does it make our work less significant, or does it bring a greater weight of responsibility? Let us see in the next article how we are affected.
Aussie Oz

well that did not work! ill post it in sectio
How
‘GUILTY OR INNOCENT?’ Many wonder as they hear reports about some court case. Judges and jury members may try to be honest, but does justice usually prevail? Have you not heard of injustice and inequities in the judicial process? Such injustice is not new, as we see in Jesus’ illustration found at Luke 18:1-8.
2
Whatever your experience with human justice, note Jesus’ conclusion: “Shall not God cause justice to be done for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night . . . ? I tell you, He will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find the faith on the earth?”

ns
Aussie Oz

oh crap
how do i delete what didn't work?
cut n paste from the wt lib not so easy... seems to mess up the fonts!
i appologise
Oz
Aussie Oz

The best part is here:
We have long felt that the parable depicted Jesus’ sitting down as King in 1914 and since then making judgments—everlasting life for people proving to be like sheep, permanent death for the goats. But a reconsideration of the parable points to an adjusted understanding of its timing and what it illustrates. This refinement reinforces the importance of our preaching work and the significance of people’s response. To see the basis for this deeper understanding of the parable, let us consider what the Bible shows about Jehovah and Jesus, both as Kings and as Judges.
Fatfreek

They first figured a way to wiggle out of 1874.
Surely there is not the slightest room for doubt in
the mind of a truly consecrated child of God that the
Lord Jesus is present and has been since 1874; that the
harvest has been in progress during that time ; that most
of the saints have now been gathered. (WT 1924)
It therefore shouldn't surprise us about 1914.
What will they wiggle out of next?
Len
Fatfreek

Oops! They first had to wiggle out of 1799. The 1890 Watch Tower, referring the prophetic properties of the Great Pyramid, said as follows:
The solution of the riddle that is puzzling
men to-day--why our day has produced
so much more of invention and
discovery than the past--is found only in
the Bible. It announced the present period
of invention over two thousand years
ago. ( Dan. 12:4 .) It [Great Pyramid] pointed out, that far
in advance, that with the year A.D. 1799
"The Time of the End" would begin,
and that the present "Time of the End"
would be the "Day of God's Preparation"
( Nahum 2:3 ) for the incoming Millennium
of blessing.
Len
yadda yadda 2

Just to emphasise the Watchtower's contradictory and self-serving interpretations of Revelation 12 and it's contexxt, consider that after the Devil is ousted from heaven to the earth for a "short period of time" in verse 12, verses 13 and 14 talk about how the dragon immediately begins persecuting the woman but she flys into the wilderness "for a time and times and half a time" away from the serpent. How does the Society interpret this "time and times and half a time?" -
"Revelation 12:6 says 1,260 days. Revelation 12:14 calls the period a time, times, and half a time; in other words, three and a half times. In fact, both expressions stand for three and a half years, extending in the Northern Hemisphere from the spring of 1919 to the autumn of 1922. This was a period of refreshing recuperation and reorganization for the restored John class." Revelation - It's Great Climax is at Hand! p.184 http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/revelation-daniel-prophetic-interpretation.php
So the Society interprets the "time and times and half a time" to be a literal 3.5 years from 1919 to 1922 and yet the "short period of time" in Rev 12:12 is now nearly 100 years along and is still regarded by JW's as a "short" period of time? Something seems a bit fishy with that. Surely we would not expect the dragon's waging war with the "remaining ones" of the woman's seed in Rev 12:15-17 to last much longer than the "time and times and half a time", certainly not 90-odd years and counting! Why would the dragon disgorge water and try to drown the woman for only 3.5 years (v.15) but wage war against her seed (v17) for over 90 years and counting? Doesn't make sense.
What seems to be more reasonable and contextually harmonious to you: that the "short period of time" (v.12) is the same or similar as the "time and times and half a time" (v.14) or that the "short period of time" is 90 plus years and counting?
A clever JW apologist at this point might argue, "Ah, yes, but Revelation 12: 15-17 says that the dragon goes off and wages war with the remaining ones of the woman's seed AFTER the "time and times and half a time", so the "short period of time" is the period of waging war with the remaining seed, not the same as the 3.5 times."
Nice try, but what does the broader context say? Revelation 13:5-7 says that the "wild beast" has "authority to act forty-two months (3.5 times)" to "wage war with the holy ones". This must surely be the same "wage war" as mentioned earlier in Rev 12:17 by the Dragon against the remaining seed of the woman. The Dragon appears to be using the "wild beast" as his diabolic agency to war war agains the holy ones, or remaining ones of the woman's seed. Thus, the waging of war by the dragon is the same as the time and times and half a time, or forty two months, spoken of in Rev 13:7.
The conclusion is that the context demands a much less period of time to have elapsed for the "short period of time" of Rev 12:12 than the Watchtower Society presently allows. The Devil's "short period of time" is better seen as identical to the "time and times and half a time" that the woman flees into the wilderness and the wild beast and dragon wage war against her seed.
In the same way that the Society reasoned that there is nothing to justify Jesus "judgment" of the sheep and the goats as being an "extended period of many years", they should also re-interpret the "short period of time" of Rev 12:12 to be of much shorter duration than the current "extended period of many years" of nearly 100 years since 1914-18. Their current interpretation of "short period of time" in Rev 12:12 is clearly untenable scripturally and contradictory.
yadda
elder-schmelder

It will never stop.
elder-schmelder
Farkel

:Nearly 100 years of Devil's "short period of time"
Not as ridiculous as the nearly 100 years of Jesus "reigning as King" since 1914. For a King who has been "reigning" for nearly 100 years, he has been most inconspicuous.
Maybe he is getting caught up on a lot of "paperwork." I don't know.
Some "reign."
Farkel

Nearly 100 years of Devil's "short period of time" (Rev 12:12) - Ridiculous!

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