by cantleave 88 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
The rabbis believe these stories teach mitzvah.
I was speaking about religious laws. That's why I said the above.
But as I said, if you claim you know and have better understanding over my own thoughts and words than me, why do you need to ask me a question in the first place like you did?
You just wanted to argue.
You have no desire to listen or be "peaceful," huh, Pete?
God sacrificed himself:
“feed the church of God which he purchased with his own blood”. - Acts 20:28
Jesus, the man, said that no one takes his life, he gives it up because of his own volition.
Lots of people have given their life to save others.
Like a good dad, God put this burden on himself.
"Is Jehovah ridiculous for asking Abraham to burn Issac? And is Abraham ridiculous for trying to do it?"
Why would people question Abraham's ATTEMPT at sacrificing Isaac when it was not meant to go through to completion. It was a test of faith.
Gen 22:2 "Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and travel to the land of Mo·riʹah and offer him up there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I will designate to you.”"
vs 8 "To this Abraham said: “God himself will provide the sheep for the burnt offering, my son"
vs 10 "Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son."
vs 11 "But Jehovah’s angel called to him from the heavens and said: “Abraham, Abraham!” to which he answered: “Here I am!”
Then
he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him,
for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld
your son, your only one, from me"
See. It was a test and Abraham passed it and it was never meant to hurt him.
Jephthah was the one that made the vow. He would not kill and burn another human from his household. So Jehovah would not want him to kill and sacrifice another human.
The problem is that people read the words in the Bible, though badly written and reading not from the writer's perspective, in a vacuum and take it without considering other texts.
Peacefulpete, You took those out of context
"A human sacrifice for good of a community thru appeasement of a god? (John 18:14 "...it would be good if one man died for the people.""
Caiaphas said that as a justification to kill Jesus.
"How about a god sending his people to war where many are killed? (Judges 20)"
Those are not human sacrifices. That is just how war works. The enemy gets killed.
"Are they not human sacrifices to please a god?"
Not by God's people.
"Or the burning alive members of the tribe that behave in unapproved manner?"
Only by dragon riders.
Rattigan350 Everyone knows what the Abraham and Issac story is meant to teach, obedience and Jesus's future sacrifice. What is ridiculous is the whole premise of the request and why plant this crazy idea in the heads of ancient people to sacrifice your child to appease Jehovah. Especially when all the pagans around are all doing the exact same thing.
The text explicitly says that the vow was to offer her as a burnt offering and that Jephthah carried out his vow. Of course Jehovah would not want him to kill and sacrifice another human, but he didn't care either.
Jehovah wants men to marry only one woman as set forth with Adam and Eve. He doesn't even want you to look at a women with lust. So King David and Solomon couldn't possibly have had all those wives and concubines. Yup for sure!
Judges 11:40 does not say that maidens would visit her every year. It says that every year Israelite women would "commemorate" (tnh) her every year for four days, i.e. lament her death and recount her tale.
An interesting crossover with another recent thread discussing Micah 6:8 and the word 'chesed'. Verses 6-7 describe the potential offerings to be made to Yahweh. Included is his firstborn son.
With what shall I come before the Lord
and bow down before the exalted God?
Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,
with calves a year old?7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
with ten thousand rivers of olive oil?
Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,
the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly[a] with your God.
Here the writer at least makes acknowledgement of the idea of sacrificing the firstborn. Dating the work is notoriously difficult. It may retain elements from an 8th century prophet, however if so, the failed predictions were revived and reworked during the 6th/5th century. So, while the author of the passage above seems, like Ezekiel and other prophets, to disparage the idea of making sacrifices in favor of acts of loyalty/kindness, the mention of the sacrifice of the firstborn as a sin offering betrays the historical realities.
The story of Jephthah's daughter is special to me because this issue was a turning point for me when I realized that the Bible is not holy and cannot have come from a loving Creator.
I spent a lot of time trying to explain it in a positive way for the Bible, I read many explanations from various apologists. I repeatedly begged God, in whom I still deeply believed at that time, often with tears in my eyes to give me understanding. All to no avail. All because, in my opinion, the Bible itself does not leave much room for speculation.
So when it comes to interpreting the Bible, I think the first place to look for the answer is in the Bible itself. I think the answer to this matter is in Leviticus chapter 27. This chapter contains the laws regarding making vows. Jephthah made a vow, so let's see what laws applied to him. It turns out that according to Leviticus 27, there are two types of vows: those that can be revoked (verses 1-27) and those that cannot be revoked (28, 29). If Jephthah made the first kind of vow, he could easily redeem his daughter according to the tariff (30 or 10 shekels depending on age) However, as he himself said, he could not revoke this vow: "Now I have opened my mouth to Jehovah, and I am unable to turn back.” So what did he have to do with his daughter according to Leviticus 27:28, 29? He had to burn her." But no devoted thing that a man devotes unconditionally to Jehovah from his belongings may be sold or bought back, whether from mankind or animals or the field he possesses. Every devoted thing is something most holy to Jehovah.29 Furthermore, no condemned person who is set apart for destruction may be redeemed. He should be put to death without fail."
And then there is the fact that Abraham did not at all question the source of the voice that told him to offer his son on the stake. He was sure that this is his God and not for example same evil angel who tells him to do it
Person
I agree with everything you stated. For some reason the account of Jephthah's daughter really throws people's cognitive dissonance into overdrive. Truth of the matter is Jehovah isn't too worried about people or kids dieing. Job 10 kids 7 sons 3 daughters dead for what. Egypt plague, probably a hundred thousand kids and another hundred thousand adults. Elisha has Jehovah kill about 40 kids because he was pissed he lost all his hair.
It goes on and on for innocent kids getting killed once you start thinking about it.
The flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, Amalekite slaughter, Midianite slaughter, Jericho city collapse I'm sure there are more examples. But, Jephthah's daughter???? Jehovah could never, ever, EVER allow an innocent girl to die!!! Even though that's exactly what is stated happened in the bible.
Yes exaxly as you say. Of course, many people do not want to acknowledge these facts because they WANT to believe in the God of the Bible. However, I think there is a second reason for denying the existence of such macabre facts. It is because people do not want to be called anti-Semites. And the Bible describes the early history of Judaism. It turns out that Judaism originated from tribal religions that at the very beginning practiced things like human sacrifice. It was only later that the religion evolved and began to respect human life more. There is nothing extraordinary about it. But for some people, talking about it is anti-Semitic.
