All You Apostates are EVIL READ!! – (LONG RESPONSE)

by tjlibre 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  tjlibre

  DubR ,

  Thanks for your comments, and yes, to my misfortune I’m an active elder. I didn’t have the courage to leave this religion (cult) when I had the chance.

  As I mentioned on my post, my opinions are just that…opinions. If my line of thought appeared weak or illogical, I accept that. Unlike some JW, I’m ok standing up to scrutiny and criticisms.

  I also mentioned that it was not my intention to argue for or against the existence of a Creator. You have your reasons for not believing in God and/or for having no feelings towards Him. Again, that is your right. This is an open forum, and I expressed my ideas respectfully.

  Scientists have to really on books based on studies, findings and conclusions reached by man. Which are subject to changes and adjustments. The Bible is not a science book, is a book of faith and spirituality, a guide for those who choose to live by its code. The same way that the Bible has been used to justify atrocities against fellow men in the name of God, the theory of Evolution has been used to justify genocides in the name of race superiority.

  Creativhoney

  Science is not God’s enemy. I’m all for science, for example, Einstein’s theory of Relativity helped to determine that the universe is still expanding. Meaning that the universe had a starting point, that’s what we know as the “Big Bang” theory. The Big Bang theory sounds a lot to me like the creation account in Genesis. Science helped me to change my stance regarding what I believed to be one of God’s commandments for Christians, to abstain from blood transfusion. Through science I learned that blood is not a liquid but a tissue (or an organ), that a blood transfusion is not the same as eating blood (due to the way that the body process blood in the digestive system). So, if science proves beyond reasonable doubt that there is no Creator and/or that the flood (regional or global) never occurred, I’ll be the first one burning my bible and in line to worship the flying spaghetti monster.

  Lillith

  TJLibre is moving on. Peace!
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  Tuesday

  Science is not God’s enemy. I’m all for science, for example, Einstein’s theory of Relativity helped to determine that the universe is still expanding. Meaning that the universe had a starting point, that’s what we know as the “Big Bang” theory. The Big Bang theory sounds a lot to me like the creation account in Genesis. Science helped me to change my stance regarding what I believed to be one of God’s commandments for Christians, to abstain from blood transfusion. Through science I learned that blood is not a liquid but a tissue (or an organ), that a blood transfusion is not the same as eating blood (due to the way that the body process blood in the digestive system). So, if science proves beyond reasonable doubt that there is no Creator and/or that the flood (regional or global) never occurred, I’ll be the first one burning my bible and in line to worship the flying spaghetti monster.

  I don't think this is exactly a fair statement. Mainly because there will always be unknowns and through those unknowns every believer will insert God. For instance Ancient Greeks believed Zeus hurled lightning bolts to earth, now we know the cause of lightning and it has nothing to do with Zeus. However a believer of Zeus could simply say "That is the method Zeus uses to hurl his lightning bolts". There is a .00083rd of a second before the big bang that is unaccounted for, that .00083rd of a second is where God is inserted. God was said to have created everything immediately into existence just as they are now, we have a fossil record to prove otherwise. The Old Testiment says that a Global Flood occured because God flooded the ENTIRE Earth. We now have ice cores amongst other things that prove otherwise. The Bible says that God made the sun stand still, Astronomy has shown otherwise that the Earth is moving and the sun is stationary. With every passing discovery the window to insert God into becomes smaller and smaller, just because CURRENTLY there's a small space of unknown in the origins of the universe doesn't give anyone a free pass to insert whatever they want into that gap. It would still require proof of some sort, and proof does not mean that because it can't be proved otherwise or there's no other answer. I'd say if I were you, I'd start practicing the "Rather you didn'ts" and get ready for the beer volcano.
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  lovelylil2

  Olin,

  The Jews would use the word "son" when it could actually be a grandson or great grandson. There were no words in their language to distinguish "son" "grandson" etc. They would all be listed as "son", The generations that were closest to and thus pertinent to proving Christ's lineage are in the bible intact.

  The bible does not contradict the age of man. Only fundamentalists christians do. Other Christians have no problems accepting that man is much older than that. Lilly
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  Lillith26

  TJLibre... I do apologize, I have just re-read your first post and I read your whole post this time. I didn't get far past the first couple of paragraphs earlier and after actually reading your post- I feel i must apologize for rolling my eyes at you, I see where your comming from now....

  Amy (of the, should pay more attention class).
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  WTWizard

  I also think Adam and Eve were not the only humans around at the time. Rather, they were used as representatives of the human race, and God lied so He could pull off the Original Sin scam (which is the root of all Christian and Muslim denominations and many Eastern religions). In fact, I believe God was afraid that, if a few people started thinking independently, others would soon follow and pretty soon there would be a Satan-run world where freedom would reign and prosperity, peace, and security would be normal. So He had to sabotage it to prevent it--just see how close it can come to developing, then sabotage it just before it succeeds so man can be teased again.
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  DubR

  TJLibre

  Today I was thinking about my reply to you from yesterday and kinda realized I probably came off rude to you. I am sorry for that. When you go through the same things I have went through within barely 2 years at a young age (My dad passing away to a terrible illness that much older people are diagnosed with) watching my dad go from a strong 61 year old to falling down because his muscles are giving out, unable to chew his food, unable to control urinating, and quickly loosing his grasp on reality (like a mixture of MS and Alzheimers), its makes one a very tough and hard logical individual. I grew up thinking that my whole family would walk into the paradise! I didnt even think i would be able to finish high school in "this system". So when I reason through months and months of research that there is no way I can believe the Bible or the God of the Bible, I have ALOT of evidence to point me to that conclusion. Its a very emotional subject for me...Oh yea plus I dont really care for active elders because of the "WE RUN THIS" attitude 95% of them have. So all that to say, sorry for coming off rude!
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  lovelylil2

  DubR,

  Very sorry to hear about all you have been through. I had a very tough life too. Not raised in the WT, my parents were Catholic. Both of them were addicts and my father was very abusive emotionally and physically with the five kids. He also tried to sexually abuse me starting at a young age. I was able to fend him off. So I do empathize with others who had a tough upbringing also.

  Anyway the JW's have a very narrow view of the bible and take everything literally. Most balanced Chrisitans (and yes there are a few of us out there) do not do this. We do not really even know if our current understanding about how we interpret the bible is fully correct or not. There have been many changes in laguage, culture, etc. in the past 2,000 years. But for some of us, myself included, our belief in God is not based on wether or not we correctly interpret scripture. Even Jesus told the Pharisees "you examine the scriptures daily because you think by means of them you will be saved, but you refuse to come to me". The Christian faith is based on a personal relationship with God thru his the life and teachings of his son Jesus Christ.

  You know, the JW's are not the only ones to abuse people in the name of religion. My parents who were Catholic told us kids that if we did not obey them we would burn in hell. I remember my father once telling me how awful I was (probably becuase I would not have sex with him) when I was only 7. He told me he was going to slit my throat while I was sleeping and I was going to hell that very night. I did not sleep for two whole days. For me the only thing that put my mind at ease was praying to God to please not burn me. You cannot imagine how much fear I was in. I am 40 years old and suffer post traumatic stress becasue of my Catholic upbringing. Being a witness was a piece of cake for me compared to having fear of burning alive forever. Thankfully now the Catholic church has changed this.

  But my point being, people are spiritually and emotionally abused in the name of religion all the time. And it has absolutely nothing to do with God. It has more to do with our sinful nature and the fact that man is always trying to dominate and control others. God did not invent religous institutions and niether did Jesus. In fact Jesus placed himself radically outside the religion of his day.

  I feel this way personally, just because I had a terrible childhood, a bad experience in TWO religions and am not sure entirely if I understand every word in the bible does not mean I have to become totally athiest and give up on God. Nor does anyone else have to. These things are simply not his fault although since atrocities are committed in his name it is understandable why he is blamed. But for me, If anything, my experiences have only strenghtened my faith and it may just be because of how I view things.

  For me in my darkest moments when I was afraid and had no parents to rely on, when I prayed and was given a feeling of calm, that was God. And during the times I felt totally lost in the world and like no one loved me and looked around and saw the beuaty all around me and realized yes, someone does care because he made all these beautiful things for me, that was my walk with God. And other times I wondered why I was put on earth anyway when most of my life I had to suffer, instead of resenting God, I felt blessed to just be alive. Because even in adversity I have been able to enjoy much beauty in my life too. For me it was God who gave me this optimistic view and spirit and I felt his presence many times during my darkest moments. But still can I fully explain exactly what or who God is? Probably not.

  I am glad I believed in a God and felt he cared because if not, I would have killed myself a long time ago.

  For those who simply cannot believe in a God, believe in these things then; love, charity, friendship, family, goodness, kindness, happiness. And hopefully you will have peace in your life no matter what happens. Lilly
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  ziddina

  Uh, LovelyLil2... "We do not really even know if our current understanding about how we interpret the bible is fully correct or not. There have been many changes in laguage, culture, etc. in the past 2,000 years..."

  ONLY the last 2,000 years??? The oldest bit of writing traceable to the 'bible' is actually around 3,500 years old... And 'change' is a constant - has been occurring for over 12 billion years down to the last 6,000 years, depending on which one of the myriad belief systems [or science...] one goes with...

  DubR, Olin Moyle's Ghost, Tuesday - good responses!

  Zid

  
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  DubR

  Hi Lovely lil

  You sound like a very nice lady. I am very sorry to hear the horrible things you had to go through growing up. No one should ever have to be exposed to such a life. I am not sure if everyone understands "the facts I choose to except." I think this phrase is better than saying "what I believe in" because there is a big difference. It is not that I dont believe in God or a God anymore. I see it this way, using logic and reasoning I can never say that this earth, life, universe; ect just came about by chance. I know there had to be some type of Creator or Creators, I honestly have no idea but I would assume some advance lifeform/s had something to do with it. Now the disconnect is to automatically give the credit of Creation to the Bible's God. For one, the Bible claims that the God written about in it is the author of it and that his Word is infallible. So what that tells me is The God of the bible has a pretty good chance claiming to have created everything if his word is infallible, right! OK, now if there is one tiny contradiction or untruth then that whole book is no longer considered infallible and the supposed author of it looses all credibility. We have to be strict with this logic because the Bible isn't saying that humans are the author of this book but a perfect God is.

  What was one of the shockers to the truth of the Bible was the Global Flood Story. The Bible said that God punished evil mankind with a Global Flood and even Jesus referred to the Global Flood story. So, the Bible's God said it was a GLOBAL FLOOD that occured. Anyone that say's "well it was regional or you cant take that story literal" are calling the Bible's God and his son Jesus a liar!! We all have to except that fact first before anything else. Its kinda like when we all had to face the fact that the Watchtower was not God's channel of communication. It turned out to be a fact tho! Ok now lets go back in time.

  Records of flourishing civilizations in China , Egypt , Babylon , and Mesopotamia exist straight through the flood era of 2500-2000 BCE. This contingency creates a stack of obvious problems without planned solutions because the flood supposedly vanquished the inhabitants of these regions. If this was the case, why do we now possess their journals made before, during, and after this global deluge? The flood would have certainly destroyed these societal accounts if God were truly guilty of genocide. If people from each region somehow managed to survive and continue these records, why isn’t the cataclysmic flood mentioned in their accounts? In fact, no sort of catastrophe on this level exists anywhere in the written histories of any society during any era. On the other hand, records of ancient civilizations frequently mention several local floods. This is quite possibly the most compelling reason why many Christians have abandoned a global flood hypothesis in favor of a local one, a proposal rapidly gaining in popularity that I will debunk toward the end of this chapter. Had the authors known their descendants would one day be able to date these civilizations, the story most certainly would have been different from what we have today.

  There is much more evidence that supports that NO global flood ever happened! Now this is the hard part for most of Christians right here. I will go back to my previous statement when I said we have to face Facts like when most of us found out the truth about the Watchtower. Ok, you ready....THERE WAS NO GLOBAL FLOOD..THE BIBLE IS FALLABLE...THE BIBLE'S GOD IS FALLABLE!! Dont get me wrong, there are alot of great and wonderful points in the bible, points that made me the man I am today. But I had to realize (this is just me) that the bible is fallable because "imperfect" men are the author. Sometimes I feel like I may even be doing a Creator/s a favor because there are alot of things written in the bible that make the Bible's God seem evil. Making us (my dad) suffer for what 2 people we dont even know did. Asking faithful Abraham, "Go Kill UR SON FOR ME" or even sitting back and watching faithful Job loose his family and suffer to the point of beggin to die because the Bible's God wanted to see if he would keep having his back..... I dont mean to offend if believing in the Bible's God made you a stronger woman then thats whats up!! It made me feel stronger growing up and when I faced the facts and stop believing in the Bible's God for some reason I continued to be a strong good person who would never be mislead again!!

  DubR
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  lovelylil2

  I said 2,000 years meaning since the new testament was written.

  DubR,

  The bible has 2 authors to it. It was written by men as they were born along by Holy Spirit. So you can say God is the author as well as men. The way I look at it is this; The prophecies were definatley God because Paul said "no prophecy springs from private interpretation" He goes on to identify it as coming from God.

  The rest of the bible while inspired of God does not claim to be prophetic and is not infallible. We need a balance view of the bible because many of its writings are not the direct word from the mouth of God. I know many want to believe it is and teach it is but it simply is not. I am thinking for instance the psalms, proverbs, etc. While these books teach literal truths about God they were written by men while under inspiration. Not men acting as God's secretary writing his words from his mouth. But whatever pertinent information God wanted man to know, he brought it out thru men.

  But in additon to prophecy the bible contains histories, allegories, poetry, prayers, illustrations and moral stories to be read and understood as such. While all of it contains the wisdom of God, we need to have the proper view of it. Most fundamentalist religions do not. For whatever reason God chose imperfect men to reflect his thoughts in the world. this is one of the mysteries of God.

  About God himself, You and I are both agreement that we really do not know who or what God is. I do see him in the written word, the bible but see him in nature and love and life in general. Sometimes my best spiritual moments are just looking up at the moon and stars in awe and wondering about God. No one can really fully understand GOD. So again, we agree on this.

  Whatever your path. I do sincerely hope you are at peace. Lilly