All You Apostates are EVIL READ!! – (LONG RESPONSE)

by tjlibre 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • tjlibre
    tjlibre

    This is in response to DubR post.

    Welcome to the board DubR. I whish you and your wife success and happiness in your new path.

    Now, lets talk about your feelings towards God, Jesus and the bible. I have noticed that after leaving the WT some stop believing in a Creator that cares about us. I completely understand the reasons why many arrive to this conclusion. It is, after all, their prerogative and I respect their position.

    My intention is not to debate the basis for believing or not in a Creator. I just want to voice my opinion regarding some of the reasons you listed as basis for not believing.

    • Man have been on this earth for hundreds of thousands of years.

    The Bible’s chronology is mainly based on the perspective that the Jews had about their origin and history as God’s chosen people. The fact that the bible places the origin of man to 6,000 plus years ago is, by no means, a solid basis for not believing (or not allowing for the possibility) that humans were created at some point in the history of the universe. Evolutionists are not consistent in their explanation of the length of time that modern men have been in existence; some say millions, billions, others thousand of years. They have yet to produce the so called “missing link”. At the rate that humans reproduce, there should be thousands maybe even millions of such missing links all over the earth. Why have they failed in providing a believable “missing link”? Much of the evidence that evolutionist present to support their theory is mainly based on speculation. And isn’t speculation a form of faith? Think about it.

    • A global flood never happened.

    For centuries, many cultures believed that the Earth was flat. We now know that the Earth is round or oval. What is my point? Dogmatism set aside, should we not allow for the possibility that the biblical flood was regional? Hence, a global flood as understood (by general consensus) by men at that point in history? For more on this topic, I suggest reading the article titled “The Flood of Noah’s Timehttp://www.commentarypress.net/cpn-essays/English/6E9A71B2-FAF2-47F9-9F75-097C7517839E.html .

    • The Old Testament is ridiculous.

    I find this statement rather hasty. If that is the case, should we then label as ridiculous the commandments found in the OT such as: “you shall not murder”, “you shall not steal”, “do not bear false witness against your neighbor”, “don’t covet your neighbor’s …wife, house…ox, (car, job, bank account)”. We all know too well the suffering and pain that the violators of these simple principles have brought to others. And this almost perfect code of conduct is in the OT. Ridiculous, I strongly disagree.

    As for God’s request to Abraham to sacrifice his son (as a test of faith), a lot has been written about the meaning of this odd request. But who is to say with absolute certainty that Abraham did not object or at least tried to reason with God? The account starts on Genesis 22:2 by God asking:"Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you." Verse 3 starts rather abruptly, there is no transition, it simply tells us that “Abraham rose early in the morning”… which begs the question, what was the dialog between God and Abraham before verse 3? Did Abraham object at first, did he ask for the meaning of such an odd request? Did God provide him with an explanation or words of assurance that all will be fine? There is a precedent that allows for the possibility that Abraham asked questions. When God said to Abraham that he was going to destroy the city of Sodom, we find Abraham asking questions and pleating with God. Genesis 18:23-25 Abraham asked…"LORD, when you destroy the evil people, are you also going to destroy those who are good? 24Wouldn't you spare the city if there are only fifty good people in it? 25You surely wouldn't let them be killed when you destroy the evil ones. You are the judge of all the earth, and you do what is right." Therefore, can we conclude that Abraham did no hesitate in sacrificing his own son? Governments regularly ask their citizens to give their sons and daughters to their armies, and millions of those sons and daughter have been sacrificed before the altar of the god of war. Is this a reason for not believing that there is a president, a government, etc? I don’t see why not understanding the nature of this test of faith results in not believing in a merciful all powerful Creator.

    • The egyptians have never enslaved Jews.

    Nor there is archeological finding disproving the biblical account. But there is one interesting theory, it’s about the Hyksos people. Archeologists have found writings in Egyptians temples that relate the story of a Semitic invasion by the Hyksos who where later defeated and enslaved. Here are some excerpt form wikipedia:

    “The Hyksos continued to play a role in Egyptian literature as a synonym for "Asiatic" down to Hellenistic times. The term was frequently evoked against such groups as the Semites settled in Aswan or the Delta, and this may have led the Egyptian priest and historian Manethoto identify the coming of the Hyksos with the sojourn in Egypt of Joseph and his brothers, and helped modern historians identify the expulsion of the Hyksos with the Exodus .”

    Josephus identifies the Israelite Exodus with the first exodus mentioned by Manetho, when some 480,000 Hyksos "shepherd kings" (also referred to as just 'shepherds', as 'kings' and as 'captive shepherds' in his discussion of Manetho) left Egypt for Jerusalem. [21] The mention of "Hyksos" identifies this first exodus with the Hyksos period (16th century BCE).”

    There are examples of secular archeologists that have ridiculed the bible who are later put to shame by new archeological findings proving the biblical account accurate. There is more to be found before we reject the biblical account of the Hebrews enslavement in Egypt. Should we not then give the historical account in the OT the benefit of a doubt? There are people who believe in the lost continent of Atlantis, so why not believe that the Hebrews were slaves in Egypt?

    We don’t need to pack theology in a box “to get it right”, or rush in replacing one set of believes with another set of believes. There is no such thing as absolute certainty or “truth”. Even if you don’t believe in God or become an agnostic, in it self that is no real improvement after all. You’ll still have to defend your disbelieve in God with a number of arguments that require a greater leap of faith (i.e. evolution and chance), there is orthodoxy in being an atheist/agnostic. We are limited in our understanding of the Universe, we should not be so concern with the why’s and how’s are we here, rather we should try to figure-out WHAT are we here for.

    I don’t intent to change your mind if it has been made up already. One of the good things about liberating your self form the Watchtower’s mental shackles, is that you are free to appreciate the greatness of God, his nature and works. And even if it’s all just a funky chemical reaction in my brain, God is a good drug for me. Want some? Open your bible again and read from Matthew to Jude, absorb the message, don’t worry about meaning and interpretation.

    Feel free to PM if you whish to keep talking.

    Regards,

    TJLibre

  • Butterflyleia85
    Butterflyleia85

    Christians aren't the only one's that believe in a huge flood! And it did happen. (Learned that in English Literature Class)

  • lovelylil2
    lovelylil2

    Libre,

    You raised some interesting points. This is how I see it from the perspective of a more balance Christian as compared to a JW

    Man is only 6,000 years old - The bible does not teach that man was on earth only 6,000 years. This is a misunderstanding because the geneology records are not fully complete in the bible. With even a modest study of the bible's geneological records you will find most Bible scholars agree that whole generations were left out because if not, the books will be way too long for anyone to read. The bible includes only those generations pertinent to either 1)a point God is trying to make, 2)an interaction God had with a certain person or peoples or 3)those needed to prove the geneology of Christ. Also when the bible uses the term "father" or "son" in the geneology records it could actually be referring to grandfather or grandson, or great grandfather or greatgrandson. So we need to have a much broader view of the geneological records.

    The old testament is ridiculous - probably to a non believer yes it would seem that way. Also most of the OT was written for the Jews. It is their historical information and stories and they know how to interpret it. people need to realize the Jews do not take all the bible stories as literal. The best thing I ever did was purchase a Tanakh, it will really open your eyes to what we call the "old testament"

    About Egypt - the bible uses the term Egypt to mean two things -1)the actual place Egypt 2)spiritual bondage of believers. Used in the latter case God calls all his people out of "Egypt" i.e. spiritual bondage.

    The global flood never happened - well yes and no. Too large a subject to answer here. But keep in mind there are variations of views on this by Christians, not just the narrow fundamentalist one.

    Got to go to work now but feel free to pm me anytime if you want to discuss these matters further.

    Peace, Lilly

    edited response

  • DubR
    DubR

    Hi TJLibre. First off it would have made more sense to put this post in the tread I already created if it was a response to me! I understand if you just wanted to preach to others as well... Second, you sound ALOT like a very active elder. I was looking at a couple of your past posts and your questions to the members here sound like you are doing a survey for the Governing Body ex :(HOW MANY ELDERS ON HERE?) lol. Come on guy, I may not be the most intelligent speaker (im down South) but I didnt graduate from a renowned University in Construction Managment @ 21yrs old and get a lucrative job in the Oil & Gas business because i catch on slow!!

    " Now, lets talk about your feelings towards God, Jesus and the bible." Man, I promise that sounds like the beginning statement to a bible study! You must have missed my points in my previou post because I don't have any feelings toward God, Jesus, and the Bible. Its kinda like someone telling you...Now, lets talk about your feelings toward leprechauns, unicorns; goku. There really wasn't anything to talk about! I understand if you just wanted to share your views, thats different.

    Man have been on this earth for hundreds of thousands of years.

    Dude, this is the 21st Century. Everyone who doesnt try to blindly defend the bible knows that human beings have been living on this planet well over tens of thousands of years. Its just a fact! Plus I never brought up a missing link subject or that my stand doesnt involve faith..It involves FACTS!

    A global flood never happened.

    Do you know how many different global flood variations exist from ancient civilization...THOUSANDS! Actually I can tell you a global flood story that is dated back well before Noah's story. Research the Epic of Gilgamesh. Think about it, if a flood happened back during ancient times (no internet, tv, news, weather reports) they would think that the world was flooded! And if you want to say, "well it was local" you have inadvertently proved that Gods Word is fallible because the Bible and Jesus said GLOBAL FLOOD!! Stop doin like the JWs do...Add to the scripture when they dont add up!

    The egyptians have never enslaved Jews.

    "Nor there is archeological finding disproving the biblical account." Ok lets keep using that same line of reasoning.. Thousands of years ago pigs use to fly! Wait.. There is NO archeological findings to disprove that statement! We cant use nothing to try to support what we want to support..only facts!

    The Old Testament is ridiculous.

    I saved the best for last. I only took several scriptures just to show how ridiculous the Old Testament is. Maybe I need to add, In My Opinion. You decide for yourself.

    Genesis

    God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night,

    on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the

    sun and the stars) until the fourth day ( 1:14 -19). 1:3-5

    All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats,

    mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were

    created by God. But, of course, we now know that there were carnivorous

    animals millions of years before humans existed. 1:30

    Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me

    shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two

    other humans alive at the time -- his parents! 4:14

    God decides to kill all living things because the human imagination is

    evil. Later ( 8:21 ), after he kills everything, he promises never to do

    it again because the human imagination is evil. Go figure. 6:5

    God repents. 6:6-7

    God was angry because "the earth was filled with violence." But didn't

    God create the whole bloody system in the first place? Predator and

    prey, parasite and host -- weren't they all designed by God? Oh, it's

    true that according to 1:30 God originally intended the animals to be

    vegetarian. But later ( 3:18 ) he changed all that. Still, the violence

    that angered God was of his own making. So what was he upset about? And

    how would killing everything help to make the world less violent? Did he

    think the animals would behave better after he "destroys them with the

    earth"? I guess God works in mysterious ways. 6:11-13

    God worries that people could actually build a tower high enough to

    reach him (them?) in heaven. 11:4

    God decides to kill Moses because his son had not yet been circumcised.

    Luckily for Moses, his Egyptian wife Zipporah "took a sharp stone, and

    cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said,

    Surely a bloody husband art thou to me. So he [God] let him go." This

    story shows the importance of penises to God, and his hatred of

    foreskins. 4:24-26

    LAST BUT NOT LEAST!!!

    Noah sends a dove out to see if there was any dry land. But the dove

    returns without finding any. Then, just seven days later, the dove goes

    out again and returns with an olive leaf. But how could an olive tree

    survive the flood? And if any seeds happened to survive, they certainly

    wouldn't germinate and grow leaves within a seven day period. 8:8-11

  • VoidEater
    VoidEater

    Some of the above really goes into territory that would be termed "fanwanking" in other online communities - making stuff up out of whole cloth.

    There's more to what went on between Abraham and God? Really? Isn't that rather JW-ish? "There must have been more because our interpretation doesn't really make sense on it's own"? Why would God not give us the whole story of his unchanging perfection in his inerrant Word??

  • creativhoney
    creativhoney

    I have a couple of issues with this too.

    The Old Testament is ridiculous.

    I find this statement rather hasty. If that is the case, should we then label as ridiculous the commandments found in the OT such as: “you shall not murder”, “you shall not steal”

    Ok maybe ridiculous wasn't the best choice of word, but You Shall Not Murder, but then God sends armies to wipe out cities and murder its inhabitants. I'm sorry, how does this fit in with the ten commandments? you either murder or you dont.

    Sodom and Gomorrah.

    why did God destroy them? most people say its because he knew there was no one good there. - what about babies, or unborn. - then people say God can read hearts and the future. - if thats the case why not do the same today and bring Armageddon? - people say because he is waiting for people to turn to him -- so why not do that in Sodom.. because he knew the outcome... well if he knows the outcome, why hasnt he done the same today and brought on Armageddon? .. and round we go.

    Nor there is archeological finding disproving the biblical account.

    - again, thats quite a lame statement - there is no archeological finding disproving. - there is no archeological finding to disprove that a clan of aliens live in my attic or indeed that pigs fly. - proof has to work the other way. you can prove something by saying prove does exist, but you cant prove something by saying there is no proof that it doesnt. that is far too ambiguous and leaves far too much margin for error, - to fill this gap, they invented a word, - faith. and thus the acceptance of all wild claims began.

    For centuries, many cultures believed that the Earth was flat. We now know that the Earth is round or oval. What is my point? Dogmatism set aside, should we not allow for the possibility that the biblical flood was regional?

    please forgive me but now we know the earth is round when we once thought it was flat that proves a global flood? - how are these two facts interconnected. - you may as well say they were wrong about the earth being round hence that proves there must be life on other planets - they are wholly unconnected phenomena. -

    in fact your logic here is backward - science proved the earth was round, religion argued.. science said the earth revolved around the sun - he was arrested for the rest of his life for heresy. -- its religion that claims the flood, science says otherwise.. so who are you siding with?

    I dont know entirely what I believe these days but it seems religion , when it argues with science just holds up its hands and goes lalalalallala.

  • zombie dub
    zombie dub
    please forgive me but now we know the earth is round when we once thought it was flat that proves a global flood?

    yea exactly, you are so thick creativ - go and get an education. or become a window cleaner.

  • watson
    watson

    I can answer all of these:

    "The Lord works in mysterious ways." Usually works.

  • Olin Moyles Ghost
    Olin Moyles Ghost

    A couple thoughts:

    First, taking the Bible literally requires a belief that man has been on this planet for only 6,000 or so years. One poster advanced the theory that whole generations were left out of the Bible. If so, how do you explain Matthew 1 (genealogy of Jesus back to Abraham) and Luke 3 (genealogy all the way back to Adam)? Setting aside the fact that these two genealogies contradict each other--if there are generations missing in the Bible, then that proves that the Bible is inaccurate which calls the Christian God (alleged "author" of the Bible--2 Tim. 3:16) into question.

    Second, there were undoubtedly large local floods in ancient Mesopotamia. But the problem is that the Bible describes a global flood. Genesis 7:19says "all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered." (NIV). It would take some linguistic gymnastics to read that passage and argue that it's not describing a global flood. Sure, some people do this--but I think they're disregarding the plain language of the Bible.

  • Lillith26
    Lillith26

    Great response DubR, Welcome to the board!!!

    *Lillith rolls eyes at Tjlibre- then moves on*

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit