Does anyone here believe that Jesus never existed?

by Newborn 70 Replies latest jw friends

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  Midget-Sasquatch

  There are a small number of details included in the gospels, that I find more plausibly explained by there being some real Jesus rather than being entirely mythical. Why have the "superior" Jesus be baptized by the "inferior" John the Baptist? Unless there is some real memory of this Jesus being associated with John and possibly once his follower. Why have two separate stories trying to explain how he was born in Bethlehem but actually came to grow up in the areas around Galilee, unless he actually was from that area? You can also throw in a handful of statements that don't really mesh all that well with the later portrayals of Jesus.

  The above material seems like living memories that they had to address rather than material one would incorporate into a developing myth.

  For the record: I am inclined to think that most of the details are legends/myth. Alot of the earliest material seems to be apocalyptic in tone, with similarities to Essene ideas though. So I don't find it implausible to think there was a Jesus from Galilee influenced by this stream, and took it upon himself to spread the word. He got a little too zealous in Jerusalem though at the Temple and paid dearly for it.
• 

  Pistoff

  Why have the "superior" Jesus be baptized by the "inferior" John the Baptist? Unless there is some real memory of this Jesus being associated with John and possibly once his follower.

  A good example of a probable historical fact that had to be dealt with, as it was embarassing; how could the student be greater than the teacher? Most probably knew that Jesus was a disciple of John's, but the idea that John baptizes Jesus does not fit with Jesus being the greater prophet. So the text eventually develops "explanatory" material, having Jesus say that it was OK in this instance.
• 

  lovelylil2

  I find it interesting that people would doubt the total existance of Jesus of Nazareth when No reliable bible scholar today has ever said that Jesus is merely a mythical character.

  Also important to note; Paul's writings in which he acknowledges an actual historical Jesus were written BEFORE the first of the gospel accounts of the Apostles. So we cannot really say no evidence exists outside of the gospels because Paul's writing WERE outside of the gospels. As far as him not writing similiar information to the gospels, well his conversion to Christ was unique as compared to the Apostles. He also upon converting to Christ did not seek out any other Christians for 14 years. So he was simply writing from a very different perspective. Nothing in his writings though contradicts the gospel writers in any way, nor the other way around. Again, its a matter of relationship with and perspective only.

  Another reason that an actual historical person Jesus existed is that not enough time had lapsed between Jesus' death and the first writings about him to support an actual mythical person called Jesus being created. In other words, most of the people alive during his time were still alive and would have known whether stories about him were made up or not. And they certainly would know if such a person existed.

  Another point to ponder is this; why are the gospels being held in suspect "until proven true" to unbelievers anyway? I say the burden of proof lays on the unbelievers to prove the gospels are false. The Jews have always had a reputation for oral tradition and keeping accurate records so I do not see why the gospels would be held in suspect. Again, the burden of proof goes the other way my friends especially since no bible scholar claims the gospel accounts of Jesus are a fake.

  About Josephus - some say his writings about Jesus are suspect, some say not. I guess it depends on whom you decide to believe.

  Anyway, this is my two cents from the perspective of a believer in Jesus, don't want to argue this points. I am simply stating my views as I see them.

  One more thing; even modern day Jewish Rabbis and modern day Muslims say that Jesus Christ of Nazareth existed (by the way he is in the Talmud), they just disagree on who he actually was.

  Peace, Lilly
• 

  parakeet

  lovelylil2: No reliable bible scholar today has ever said that Jesus is merely a mythical character.

  Of course, Bible scholars believe Jesus existed. The real question is, have scientists and scholars without bias toward the Bible found sufficient evidence that Jesus existed? Remember, we agnostics and atheists don't believe a priori in anything without convincing evidence.

  I say the burden of proof lays on the unbelievers to prove the gospels are false.

  Sorry Lilly, that's not how it works. Christians are the ones making the assertion he exists; therefore, they must prove it. It's like my saying, the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists and is all powerful and loving. Prove me wrong!

  Are you the same lovely Lilly who posted under the name lovelylil? If so, welcome back! You were one of the few voices of rational Christian belief when I first came here.
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  lovelylil2

  Parakeet,

  Hi, yes I am the same lovelylil. Thanks for the welcome.

  why would I care what scientists think about Jesus? The bible is a faith book.

  I still stand by my statement. Since the bible is a book written for and by people of a certain faith, it should be left to them to interpret it and decide how much wieght to give to it in their lives. Peace unto you, Lilly
• 

  aSphereisnotaCircle

  I find it interesting that people would doubt the total existance of Jesus of Nazareth when No reliable bible scholar today has ever said that Jesus is merely a mythical character.

  Your right, I think they usually say he is most likely to be a conglomerate of a number of real and mythical people.

  Another reason that an actual historical person Jesus existed is that not enough time had lapsed between Jesus' death and the first writings about him to support an actual mythical person called Jesus being created. In other words, most of the people alive during his time were still alive and would have known whether stories about him were made up or not. And they certainly would know if such a person existed.

  If you actually believe that A story can't be twisted and changed in a decade or two then I would like to tell you a story how the WTBS NEVER stated that 1975 would bring armegeddon.

  Another point to ponder is this; why are the gospels being held in suspect "until proven true" to unbelievers anyway? I say the burden of proof lays on the unbelievers to prove the gospels are false. The Jews have always had a reputation for oral tradition and keeping accurate records so I do not see why the gospels would be held in suspect. Again, the burden of proof goes the other way my friends especially since no bible scholar claims the gospel accounts of Jesus are a fake.

  First of all the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. period.

  And second of all it always cracks me up whenever someone goes on about how accurate a groups oral tradition is! Really? How do you know that? How WOULD you know that? Please explain that to me!

  Or is that another matter of "it's true because no one can prove it's not true"?
• 

  parakeet

  Lilly: Since the bible is a book written for and by people of a certain faith, it should be left to them to interpret it and decide how much wieght to give to it in their lives. Peace unto you, Lilly

  I agree completely.
• 

  Nathan Natas

  Pistoff: "Jesus death is referenced by Josephus..."

  Try this simple experiment: go to Superpages.com and do a PEOPLE search for the name CLARK KENT.

  I just got 44 hits for the entire USA.

  This must be PROOF that SUPERMAN is real.
• 

  Spook

  I think the character portrayed in the Catholic and Protestant canons is an invention. I don't have a strong opinion whether there was one individual Jewish reformer underneath those or whether the stories were cobbled from many individuals.
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  lovelylil2

  Nathan,

  Hi. I agree with you there were probably many Jesus' back then. It was a common name for the time.

  The thing is though that Josephus mentions that this Jesus was a doer of great works and was condemed by Pilate to the cross. So if you believe the Josephus account, this is the Jesus Christians worship. Lilly