Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions? (page 2)

leavingwt

"It doesn't pay for a prophet to be too specific." (See any WT publication for details.)

TD

The end result of the typological exegesis and wild allegorical interpretation practiced by the JW's is that the Bible becomes a document written to, for and about their own esoteric little group.

I understand how somebody raised in the faith might have that elevated a view of their own importance, but I've often wondered why it does not strike a prospective convert (i.e. A Bible study) as improbable.

Cold Steel

Part of it is just style. The JWs have always misinterpreted more than they've interpreted, but I do know what you're talking about.

In some cases, things make such a resounding impact on the people that prophets later liken it to other events. In some cases, like Jonah, some events foretell other events. Moses with the graven serpent represented Jesus being lifted up. In the last days, Gog and Magog will come up against Judah and it will be such a momentous event that a rebellion at the end of the Millennium will also be likened to the last great battle (a battle that hasn't happened yet). When the Babylonian captivity ended for Israel, the return was later likened to the return of Judah in our own day. In other words, Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, but then also said that in the last days that Judah would return, just as they had during the Captivity.

Why? Who knows?

jwfacts

The Bible does not seem particularly relevant when taken as just an ancient history book, so some religions have seen the need to apply a second fulfilment to their own times. The Watchtower (and Franz in particular) had an unusually arrogant approach in applying everything imaginable to the Watchtower Society, its publications and even foreshadowing Watchtower leadership.

Cold Steel

What you're seeing with the Witnesses is "forced fulfillment" which is quite different from dual fulfillment.

Amos writes: "For surely the Lord God will do nothing except he reveal it to his servants the prophets."

Is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society anywhere prophecied in the scriptures?

No.

Do the officers and administrative boards of the Society claim to be inspired reprentatives of God?

Again, the answer is No.

What was it that Jesus said about blind guides leading the blind?

Now the elders will tell you not so fast! Although they may not receive revelation and guidance from On High, they have been set apart for their knowledge of the scriptures and their experience.

Okay, but who, pray tell, ordained them to that office? How can anyone be ordained without revelation? And who ordained the ones who ordained them? That's the rub.

Bible scholars do acknowledge dual fulfillments. Just as the Lord teaches through metaphors and analogies, there are forshadowings. Abraham being asked to sacrifice his only begotten son, Isaac was a forshadowing of Christ, and we've discussed other examples above. But there's nothing in the Bible that forshadows the Jehovah's Witnesses or the whole publishing company as church concept.

Aussie Oz

Actually, i was only wondering this myself yesterday. what if... the prophecy against Jerusalem was ONLY for then and has nothing to do with 1914 and the generation etc. I understand this is in R Franz book that i have glanced at bits of.

cheers

newbie

Gregor

The way I see it, the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society has abused the fiddling around with the so called "proto-type" prophesy angle to the point of such absurdity that they have painted themselves in a corner. Witnesses who are paying attention are seeing these constant adjustments of the "truth" for what they are. The credibility of the JW scheme is losing steam every day in every way. It will inevitably fade away.

Cold Steel

Well, Jesus said that Jerusalem would be destroyed and the Romans fulfilled that. But prophecy also states that Judah would be restored to its ancestral homelands. When Jesus returns, the Jews will still largely be in a state of disbelief. The Witnesses and many other sects believe that these prophecies are "spiritual" fulfillments. Umm...yeah...spiritual fulfillments that also happen literally.

drew sagan

I understand how somebody raised in the faith might have that elevated a view of their own importance, but I've often wondered why it does not strike a prospective convert (i.e. A Bible study) as improbable.

Excellent question.

My own conclusion has been to view Watchtower rhetoric as a dichotomy, something that can be refered to (for convience) as "level-1" and "level-2".

Level-1 rhetoric consists of Watchtower arguments and evidence that primarily function as non-artificial proofs. "Evidence" is provided that lays a framework for a comprehensive belief that appears to be rooted in logic. This is a large category that contains both recycled arguments borrowed from other christian sects (e.g. "circle of the earth" in Job) as well as JW specific arguments (e.g. no hellfire, Jehovah's name, bread pan illustration, etc.). This "canon" of arguments and evidence does not refer in any way to the Watchtowers view of itself. A great example is the 'What Does the Bible Really Teach' booklet used to study with potential converts. This book does not even mention the faithful slave doctrine.

Level-2 knowledge consists of the more elaborate, fantastic, self centered rhetoric advanced by the group. As a convert (around the age of 15/16) I can tell you that I specifically remember some of these things bothering me. However, when you first get involved there is a strong emphasis on level-1 knowledge. You are told that you will "understand things in time". A person who converts (such as myself) eventually supresses their dobuts about the level-2 stuff in light of the "truth" of the level-1 information.

In my own experience I remember the first time I had the faithful slave doctrine explained to me. I had already been going to meetings for well over a year and a half, but had no idea what it was! Even after explanation I was confused. I learned to accept this over time, but not in the same way that I accepted arguments about the name Jehovah, hellfire, paradise earth, etc. I feel that I accepted level-2 teachings almost by concession (i.e. because I could not prove level-1 wrong, level-2 had to be correct).

An intersting thing to note: My wife who was grew up JW never had the same attachment that I did to level-1 information. Instead, she picked things up randomly, as all kids do. During our exit, I spent a great deal of time proving wrong every single argument the JWs had told me. My wife could have cared less. As soon as she realized that the WTS played games, she walked away. She had no desire to do all of the reading that I did (I don't think she even finished Ray Franz's second book). I know other ex-jws (who grew up in the faith) that walked away in a simliar way. So there is a blurring effect, creating a situation where people who grow up in the religion don't recieve the same effects that converts get.

drew sagan

I totlly killed this thread....

Why does every prophecy has to have two (or more) completions?

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