Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-08-09 WT Study (OBEDIENT)

by blondie 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • blondie

    Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-08-09 WT Study (September 15, 2009, pages 11-15)(OBEDIENT)

    Review comments will be in red or headed by COMMENTS
    WT material from today's WT will be in black
    Quotes from other sources will headed by QUOTES
    w = Watchtower
    g = Awake
    jv = Proclaimers book

    Bible translations
    WT publications
    WT child abuse
    Blood issue
    United Nations

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    "Take courage! I have conquered the world."--John 16:33



    Does obedience to God mean obedience to the WTS (FDS/GB)? Were there times in ancient Israel that the belief

    systems were not in harmony with the Law? Should Israelites then just have blinded obeyed the corrupt priests? In

    Jesus' day did he tell his followers to blindly obey the religious leaders of his day? What about today, should jws

    blindly obey their religious leaders?

    (Matthew 15:13-14) . . .In reply he said: “Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted. 14 LET

    them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”


    Q1. How complete was Jesus' obedience to God?

    While Jesus may have "always" done "God's will" did he always do what the religious leaders said? Did he stop curing

    on the Sabbath. Did he tell his disciples to wash in the ritual way the religious leaders insisted on? Did he approve of

    their corban tradition?

    Even the WTS recognizes this is wrong but do not see themselves in the role of the religious leaders in giving rules that

    have no scriptural basis.

    And why was it harder on earth as a human? Didn't Jesus come from a situation when Satan had rebelled, taken 1/3 or

    the angels with him, seen the angels go down to earth and marry women, seen Satan have access to heaven and taunt

    God and the angels, and not be able to do anything about it?

    *** w98 8/1 pp. 9-10 par. 11 Jehovah—The Source of True Justice and Righteousness ***
    During his Galilean ministry in the spring of the year 31 C.E., Jesus spotted a man with a withered hand in a synagogue.

    Since it was a Sabbath, the Pharisees asked Jesus: “Is it lawful to cure on the sabbath?” Rather than feel genuine

    concern for this poor man’s suffering, they had a desire to find a pretext for condemning Jesus, as their question

    revealed. No wonder Jesus was grieved at their insensitive hearts! He then pointedly threw a similar question back at

    the Pharisees: “Is it lawful on the sabbath to do a good deed?” When they kept silent, Jesus answered his own

    question by asking them if they would not rescue a sheep that had fallen into a pit on the Sabbath. “Of how much more

    worth is a man than a sheep!” Jesus reasoned, with irrefutable logic. “So it is lawful [or, right] to do a fine thing on the

    sabbath,” he concluded. God’s justice should never be shackled by human tradition. Having made that point clear,

    Jesus went ahead and healed the man’s hand.—Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5.

    *** w90 10/1 p. 11 par. 5 Righteousness Not by Oral Traditions ***
    The common people who flocked to hear Jesus were spiritually impoverished, having been “skinned and thrown about

    like sheep without a shepherd.” (Matthew 9:36) With arrogant haughtiness the scribes and Pharisees scorned them,

    called them amhaarets (people of the land), and despised them as ignorant, accursed sinners unworthy of a

    resurrection because they did not keep the oral traditions. By Jesus’ time those traditions had become so voluminous

    and such an oppressive morass of legalistic nit-picking—so laden with time-consuming ceremonial rituals—that no

    workingman could possibly keep them. No wonder Jesus denounced the traditions as ‘heavy loads on the shoulders of

    men.’—Matthew 23:4; John 7:45-49.

    So can we expect to be "convinced," "forced," "tricked" just by Satan? Can we expect "intense mental, emotional, and

    physical pain" just from Satan?

    Are jws willing to be obedient even to death? How is that possible when they are not willing to be obedient as far as in point, movies that really watch?

    Q2,3. What can we learn from Jesus' being obedient despite his experiencing suffering?

    So what were the "new" aspects of obedience that Jesus learned that he had not learned in heaven? Was it easier for

    a perfect spirit to obey than a perfect man? Why then did Satan and 1/3 of the angels fail the obedience test? Had

    Jesus not already proved his complete integrity by not joining Satan or going down to earth to find a human mate when

    the other angels did?

    Are jws allowed to think they can remain obedient on their own? But who are they told to depend on, God or the WTS,

    God but only through the WTS.

    demonizing all non-jws--WICKED SOCIETY


    *** w07 2/1 p. 24 par. 12 Never Cease Growing in Your Appreciation ***
    We must obediently follow the direction Jehovah provides through his Word and his organization.

    *** w05 3/15 p. 24 Highlights From the Book of First Samuel ***
    As we offer to Jehovah “the young bulls of our lips,” we must do our best to obey the direction he gives through his

    written Word and the earthly part of his organization.

    *** w88 4/1 p. 31 Is Obedience Always Proper? ***
    When our heavenly Father, Jehovah God, speaks, whether through his Word, the Bible, or through his earthly

    organization, it is all the more important for us to listen and obey, thus proving that we are obedient worshipers who do

    not ignore the loving reminder: “Did you hear me?”


    Q4. What does being created as free moral agents mean for us?

    What does the WTS mean when they say "free moral agents"? Is it "we can decide to do good or to do bad"? What

    the Bible says is bad and good or what the WTS says is bad or good? "Freedom to choose to obey or disobey"

    means obeying God or the WTS? Responsible or accountable to God or the WTS?

    *** Creation book chap. 16 p. 190 par. 6 Why Would God Permit Suffering? ***
    Also, humans were created to be free agents. They were not made to react like robots, or compelled to do certain

    things primarily out of instinct, as are animals or insects. But this freedom was to be relative, not absolute. It was to be

    exercised responsibly, within the boundaries of God’s laws, laws that worked for the common good.

    Q5. What struggle do we all have, and how can we be successful?

    So if obedience is easier when experiencing sacrifice, pain, inconvenience, how did the angels who stayed in heaven

    and did not follow Satan, have their obedience tested? They did not come down to earth like Jesus. Does that mean

    that if bad things had never happened in heaven or on earth, that no one's obedience would have been fully tested?

    Would God have to initiated situations that called for sacrifice, pain and inconvenience?

    (James 1:13) . . .When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried nor

    does he himself try anyone.

    Demonizing all non-jws--spirit of the world

    obey Jehovah or the WTS?

    Q6,7. Illustrate how personal study can help us make wise choices.

    Notice that the WTS does not encourage studying the bible without "bible-based publications." But only WTS

    publications are meant here even if non-jw publications use many scriptures.

    Picking a movie without immorality and violence--What about the immorality and violence talked about in the bible

    before the flood, or Lot having sex with his daughters and the complete destruction of all the people in Sodom and

    Gomorrah, or the concubine whose husband allowed her to be gang-raped to death and then cut up her body in 12

    pieces and strew them over the land of the tribe of Benjamin? Or Judah going to a temple prostitute who turned out to

    be his daughter-in-law and then calling for her to be killed and burned?

    If one is not to even consider the "mention" of these things, how can one read the bible, let alone a WTS publication

    that discusses it?

    "strict obedience to God" = WTS

    “Does ‘the faithful and discreet slave’ [Watchtower organization] endorse independent groups of Witnesses who meet

    together to engage in Scriptural research or debate?—Matt. 24:45, 47. No, it does not. And yet, in various parts of the

    world, a few associates of our organization have formed groups to do independent research on Bible-related subjects.

    Some have pursued an independent group study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek so as to analyze the accuracy of the

    New World Translation. …They have also held conferences and produced publications to present their findings and to

    supplement what is provided at our Christian meetings and through our literature. …Thus, ‘the faithful and discreet

    slave’ does not endorse any literature, meetings, or Web sites that are not produced or organized under its oversight…

    For those who wish to do extra Bible study and research, we recommend that they explore Insight on the Scriptures,

    ‘All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,’ and our other publications….”—Kingdom Ministry, September 2007, p.


    Q8. Why must we maintain high moral and spiritual standards?


    So what is bad association? Anything outside the WTS organization and even in the WTS organization. Anything the

    WTS and its representatives say is bad association?

    *** w95 2/15 p. 16 par. 11 Saved Alive Through the Great Tribulation ***
    In the Christian congregation, young and old alike need to limit association with those not dedicated to Jehovah. To

    receive God’s favor, we strive to be blameless and without spot from the world. (Psalm 26:1-5; James 1:27; 4:4) Thus,

    we will be assured that at Armageddon, Jehovah will not sweep us away in death along with the ungodly.

    *** w04 4/1 p. 13 par. 13 Resist the Spirit of a Changing World ***
    Bad associations can involve anything or anyone—even within the congregation—reflecting the spirit of the world.

    What about the violent and immoral "entertainment" in the bible? Is it all right if it is informational?

    Q9. Why must we be determined every day to obey Jehovah?

    Choose to do things God's way or the WTS way? Obey God or the WTS?


    Q10. What kinds of pressures may be put on us, and how should we respond?

    Demonizing all non-jws--this world's attitudes and conduct...resist contamination. Are we to think that all non-jws are

    liars, cheats, immoral, drug addicts, swear, thieves, murderers, pedophiles, rapists, don't do good deeds helping

    others not just from their religious group?

    Are jws to beware of all non-jw relatives as opposers seeking to get them to sin against God?

    Are we to think that all educational systems are promoting evolution and atheism? I can think of many religious

    colleges that are not doing that as well as many secular ones? What about school K-12?

    What if your workplace promotes such ideas?

    Q11. How can reflecting on Jesus' example give us more courage?

    World's influence--all non-jws
    The world--all non-jws
    Remain separate from the world--all non-jws

    How does a jw do that and live next to non-jws, work with non-jws, go to school with non-jws.......?


    Q12-14. Give examples of Jesus' showing courage.

    Why wouldn't Jesus have great courage? He had angels protecting him and he had authority as God's Son. Which of

    us has that?

    Jesus cleared out the temple of those not adhering to God's standards--is the WTS suggesting that each jw should do

    the same, clear out the congregation of the hypocrites dishonoring God by making their manmade rules of equal value

    to God's principles?

    Remember Jesus knew he had angelic protection so that he would not die until the proper moment.

    Are jws allowed to protect themselves, family, or fellow jws from physical persecution, even rape? What happened in


    *** Proclaimers Book (1993) chap. 29 p. 674 “Objects of Hatred by All the Nations” ***
    In Malawi, there is only one political party, and possession of a party card indicates membership. Although the

    Witnesses are exemplary in paying their taxes, in harmony with their religious beliefs, they decline to buy political party

    cards. To do so would be a denial of their faith in God’s Kingdom. Because of this, late in 1967, with the

    encouragement of government officials, gangs of youths throughout Malawi launched an all-out attack on Jehovah’s

    Witnesses that was unprecedented in its obscenity and sadistic cruelty. Over a thousand devout Christian women were

    raped. Some were stripped naked before large mobs, beaten with sticks and fists, and then sexually assaulted by one

    person after another. Nails were driven through the feet of the men and bicycle spokes through their legs, and then they

    were ordered to run.

    *** g95 9/22 p. 14 Should I Learn Self-Defense? ***
    If escape is impossible, you may have no choice but to ward off violence as best you can.

    *** g91 7/8 p. 13 Self-Defense—How Far Can a Christian Go? ***
    In not supporting pacifism, however, the Bible indicates that there is a time to defend oneself. Christians may ward off

    physically aggressive attacks against themselves, their families, or others in genuine need of defense. A woman

    threatened with rape should scream and use any means at her disposal to resist intercourse.—Deuteronomy 22:23-27.


    Shouldn't Jesus' followers today 'fearlessly expose the unloving false teachers of our day and their wrong teachings'?

    These were men in their religious community not outside it in the WTS labeled Christendom.

    What happens when they do...they are labeled apostates and kicked out of the congregation? Wasn't Jesus' labeled a

    blasphemer (apostate) and killed?

    Should Christians in this situation have supported Peter's avoidance of the Gentile Christians? Should they not have

    said anything to anyone in the congregation? Should the Christians have imitated Peter, feeling they needed to have

    someone like Paul point out his error? Didn't they need to take a COURAGEOUS stand like Jesus?

    (Galatians 2:11-14) 11 However, when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him face to face, because he stood

    condemned. 12 For before the arrival of certain men from James, he used to eat with people of the nations; but when

    they arrived, he went withdrawing and separating himself, in fear of those of the circumcised class. 13 The rest of the

    Jews also joined him in putting on this pretense, so that even Barnabas was led along with them in their pretense.

    14 But when I saw they were not walking straight according to the truth of the good news, I said to Cephas before them

    all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do, and not as Jews do, how is it that you are compelling people of

    the nations to live according to Jewish practice?”

    The WTS admits that jws (only jws are Christians) today cannot cast out a demon which is considered a "miracle." But

    what is "spiritual warfare" (or "theocratic warfare") according to the WTS? It is permission to lie.

    *** w60 6/1 p. 352 Questions From Readers ***
    There is one exception, however, that the Christian must ever bear in mind. As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic

    warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God’s foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the

    purpose of protecting the interests of God’s cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God’s enemies. A Scriptural

    example of this is that of Rahab the harlot. She hid the Israelite spies because of her faith in their God Jehovah. This

    she did both by her actions and by her lips. That she had Jehovah’s approval in doing so is seen from James’

    commendation of her faith.—Josh. 2:4, 5; Jas. 2:25.

    Some WTS wrong religious notions:

    Christ's presence began in 1874
    Armageddon coming in 1914, 1915, 1920, 1925, 1975, (1984), (1994)
    Birthdays were okay until 1951
    Christmas was okay until 1928
    Cross was on cover of WT and okay until 1931 but not until 1936 was the teaching totally done away
    Superior authorities (up till 1929, secular governments; 1929-1962 Jesus and God; 1962-to present secular govts)
    Sodom/Gomorrah resurrection (numerous dates, yes and no)
    Organ transplants (up till 1967, yet; 1967-1980, no; 1980-to present yes)
    Great Tribulation began in 1914 and was temporarily stopped in 1918; 1970, GT has not started yet.
    Add your own

    Q15. On what was Jesus' courage based?

    So what is "bravado"?

    1 a : blustering swaggering conduct b : a pretense of bravery
    2 : the quality or state of being foolhardy

    So the WTS is really saying that without them, a jw would be a swaggering fool, only pretending to be brave.
    Do jws have a thorough knowledge even of the WTS teachings, let alone the bible. Without reaching for a WT

    publication could the jw who came to your door explain "1914" or can you if still attending do that? My experience is

    that even long-time jws dreaded being assigned a talk on 1914. Or what scriptures proved that 1975 was the end of

    6,000 years of human history?

    Are jws trained to use the bible as a "sword" or WTS publications? Notice how they are not sent directly to the bible.

    How many jws without a crutch like the topics for discussion in the back of the NWT or the Reasoning from the

    Scriptures or another WT publication could give a reference like Jesus did? What scripture says that jw men today

    cannot have beards or that jws cannot have blood transfusions (although they can take hemoglobin-based products

    made out of stored blood)?

    *** w06 6/1 p. 15 Find Contentment by Applying Bible Principles ***
    If you feel that your contentment is ebbing, endeavor to identify the real cause. Then look for principles that you could

    apply to correct the situation. For instance, you might check pages 110-11 of the book “All Scripture Is Inspired of God

    and Beneficial.” There, the book of Proverbs is discussed, and you will find a large selection of principles and counsel

    listed under 12 headings. The Watch Tower Publications Index and Watchtower Library on CD-ROM are excellent

    sources of information.

    Q16. How can we gain greater faith?

    How many jws ever read the daily text every day let alone the bible scripture assignment? In my experience, very few,

    very few.

    Christian meetings--only jw meetings

    Truths--see changed jw beliefs in paragraph 14 Comments.

    Q17,18. How did one young sister show courage in school?

    17. Kitty not ashamed in school. How many adult jws identify themselves as jws at work or in their neighborhood? In

    Kitty's case it wasn't until she was in her late teens and changed schools (no old friends to lose and close to

    graduation) that she finally owned up. Don't you wonder what else she said or why it was edited? So what beliefs was

    she standing up for? None are mentioned.

    18. Several mentioned their religious backgrounds, adding that they did not really practice their faith---so in what way

    was Kitty practicing hers....nothing is mentioned other than basing it on the bible. I went to high school and chummed

    around with 3 girls, 1 Baptist, 1 Lutheran, 1 independent Evangelical. They were all moral girls and lived their lives

    according to the bible. Were there no students like that in that school...I think so.

    Notice that Kitty did not identify herself as a Christian, as a follower of Christ, but rather "one of Jehovah's Witnesses."

    Where in the New Testament are Christians identified as jws? Rather they are identified as witnesses of Jesus.

    (Acts 1:8) . . .but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both

    in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria and to the most distant part of the earth.”

    (Revelation 1:9) . . .I John, YOUR brother and a sharer with YOU in the tribulation and kingdom and endurance in

    company with Jesus, came to be in the isle that is called Patmos for speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus.

    (Revelation 12:17) 17 And the dragon grew wrathful at the woman, and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of

    her seed, who observe the commandments of God and have the work of bearing witness to Jesus.

    (Revelation 17:6) . . .And I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the holy ones and with the blood of the

    witnesses of Jesus.. . .

    (Revelation 19:10) . . .At that I fell down before his feet to worship him. But he tells me: “Be careful! Do not do that! All I

    am is a fellow slave of you and of your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus. Worship God; for the

    bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying.”

    Q19. (a) What does having real faith involved? (b) How can we bring Jehovah delight?

    The WTS says that it means more than believing that God exists which is true. But where is the deep trusting

    relationship with Christ? Standing up for the righteous principles of the bible or only the WTS interpretation? What

    about jws who took a courageous stand not to have an organ transplant between 1967 and 1980 when these were

    considered a disfellowshipping offense? What about the people who died for the WTS interpretation?


    Next week, Christ's Love Moves Us to Love. But who are jws allowed to love.

    Love, Blondie

  • shopaholic

    Thanks Blondie!

    Para 3: I never liked when they compared Jesus to imperfect humans because if Jesus was perfect he's in a different league. His actions prove nothing in regards to what can be accomplished by imperfect humans.

    Para 7 & 8: This usually lasts a few days and then they watch whatever they want. There's a long awaited movie about an abused teen that is rated 'R' and I know of a number of JWs that have planned to see it. I doubt if this article will change their plans.

    Para. 18 - I don't believe it. Its an embellished experience. If it were an assembly part she would also have baptized several students and had 53 attend the memorial. I've been ask to 'spice up' an experience several times.

  • AwSnap

    How long does it take you to get these reviews done? I especially like this one

  • blondie

    Hi Awsnap. Too long sometimes. I read the mags when I get them from my jw source using highlighter and pencil (so I can copy easier). I jot down any thoughts that just come to me, make stars by phrases to look up later.

    Then about a week before I do an outline and look up stuff online or on the WT-CD. I discuss some points with my husband to see what he thinks, if it makes sense. Then I try to get it on that weekend. I had to find a new source for my scans though.

    A lot comes to me as I do it. Too much sometimes. I'm more "inspired" some weeks. It tends to be the same old crap (SOC) but even that is important to see the continually bludgeoning with their concepts.

    It sure helps me never to go back. I have been sharing some thoughts with some inactive jws I know and it has been clearing out the cobwebs in their minds as well. They'll never go back. I think it helps that we have a little group in person for support.

    Feel free to add any thoughts. I certainly don't think of everything and every person's experience brings out gems.

    Love, Blondie

  • White Dove
    White Dove

    My mom and I were arguing about my school books. They are about Homeland Security and terrorism and are full of horrid things because that is what terrorism is, horrid. She called my books demonized because all of that violence can invite them. I told her, just like your comment in paragraph 8, that the Bible is rated R. There is no other book more violent and sexually deviant than that one. I told her that she can't deny that, and she said she's not denying it, but it is for informational purposes for us to learn from. I said that is exactly why my terrorism and HLS books are the way they are. We learn from them.

  • White Dove
    White Dove

    Q4: Someone on this board said it well, "It's not a choice to obey and live or disobey and die. It's an ultimatum."

  • AllTimeJeff
    Par 6: One way to prepare our heart is by dilligently studying the bible and bible based publications.

    BULLSH*T!! Why the equivocation here? One reason why JW's, and esp the elders need WT Library is to play connect the dots with GB policy. If I were sitting in the audience, the first question I would ask is "Why don't they say what they mean? Why don't they say JW approved study aids?"

    Jehovah's Witnesses cannot study together in groups privately. They cannot use "worldly" (i.e. non JW) references for bible study. It's WT publications or bust. How could this NOT be indoctrination??

    Par 9: Practically every day, in some way, we have to choose if we will do things Jehovah's way or not. In order to gain salvation, we must obey God and live by his righteous principles.

    Whaa? Having been freed from this tyranny, it is plain to anyone not currently indoctrinated that Jehovah has nothing to do with the ideas of bible exegesis that the Governing Body puts out there.

    For lurkers and apologists both who may be reading this, when you see threads started on this forum and others by former Jehovah's Witnesses which constantly take aim at the Governing Body, this is why. The GB claims to speak for Jehovah, though imperfect. The GB says that you can't hold their mistakes over their head, because they are imperfect, and though they are spirit annointed, they aren't spirit inspired. A distinction without a difference. Because you aren't allowed to point out imperfections, you must wait, no matter how their mistakes make you suffer, in the hopes that things will change. Because if you do, you aren't pointing out the imperfections of imperfect, spirit annointed men, you are being disobedient to Jehovah.

    Pars 12-14 Question: Give examples of Jesus showing courage.

    In par 13, where they give Jesus his props for exposing the Pharisees for being themselves, you have to wonder if the irony isn't lost on the GB when they put so many rules and to do's for their flock, but don't budge them with their finger...

    Par 14 references demons. Wow. How does that apply today, when in the West anyway, most JW elders do not take reports of "demon" attacks seriously? When it usually is attributed to mental illness? Why doesn't the GB apply this scripture to modern day occurrences that they are prepared to susbtantiate? Otherwise, don't use scriptures like this. Use of the word "demons" here is designed to scare you into staying with JW's so you don't get exposed to "demons" in the non JW world. Pleeeeze.....

    It goes without saying that WT articles are the main indoctrination tool of the Governing Body. What is stated here isn't new. But it does merit full exposure for the lies and inconsistencies that are promoted.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    The predominant theme here and last week is "obedience" and "obey." The noose gets tighter.

  • AwSnap

    Hi Awsnap. Too long sometimes. I seriously wondered if you just *happen* to have all this information in the back of your brain. Well, I enjoy reading your work.

  • blondie

    I do rely on memory and then fill it out or confirm it with WTS quotes. I attended meetings for almost 50 years from a young age till about 8 years ago. I lived through much of what I write about while many here are young whippersnappers and only know of it through the publications or others memories.

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