Are there ANY Bible prophecies that indisputably came true?

by nicolaou 81 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • snowbird
    Saying 'take charge and reproduce' is a prophecy?

    You betcha!

    Wow thats not stretch at all is it?

    Only around 6,000 years.


  • EverAStudent

    Previously posted:

    The original poster asked, “Are there ANY Bible prophecies that indisputably came true?” Of course, by the time the hidden rules of the presupposition game were slowly revealed by the skeptics, the answer seems to be, “no.”

    The hidden rules of the presupposition game are:

    1. If a prophecy was made in one book of the Old Testament and fulfilled in another book of the Old Testament it must always be assumed that the prophecy was a recent edit added after the fact (about 400 BC) and did not exist in the first writing of the book.
    2. If a prophecy was made in the Old Testament regarding the future Messiah (e.g. virgin birth, born in Bethlehem, died via crucifixion, resurrected from the dead) then whenever the New Testament demonstrates that Jesus fulfilled that prophecy it must be assumed that the gospel writer invented those details about Jesus and that they never actually happened to Jesus.

    In short, the hidden rules of the presuppositionalists guarantee that no biblical prophecy can ever be accepted as valid prophecy. Worse, it makes every Old Testament book of the Bible a fabrication filled with falsehoods and every New Testament apostle that wrote a letter or endorsed a gospel account to be a flagrant liar.

    Virtually the entire Christian faith is dependent on the truths that Jesus was born of a virgin, was born in Bethlehem, lived a perfect life, died a sacrificial death, and resurrected from death to life. Since all those events were first prophesied in the Old Testament about the Messiah, it means that either Jesus fulfilled them all and was the Messiah, or, every foundational aspect of Christianity is a brazen lie and never happened.

    In other words, if one accepts that Jesus did live a perfect life, and/or died a sacrificial death via crucifixion, and/or resurrected from death to life, then you have “personal proof” that at least five Old Testament prophecies absolutely were fulfilled.

    Opposite that, if one accepts that the gospel writers and the apostles all lied in their writings about such things as Jesus being born of a virgin, Jesus being born in Bethlehem, His perfect life, His sacrificial death by crucifixion, and His resurrection to life, then EVERY aspect of Christianity is false and immoral; all of it having been based on falsehoods. There can be nothing good or wholesome in the Christian religion in such a case for it is all comprised of deceit, errors, and intentional mis-directions.

    Now, if every Bible prophecy is a fabrication and was never made in real human history, then God never revealed Himself in it or through it, ever. For example, Abraham could never have encountered God because God always prophesied the future (including a son and a nation) to Abraham on every encounter. Certainly Moses never encountered God because at the burning bush God supposedly prophesied that Moses would lead the nation out of Egypt into the promised land originally granted to Abraham (a prophecy later fulfilled by Joshua).

    Kind David was given a future-telling prophecy that his lineage would rule Israel for eternity and would save all the world from their sins. That too had to have been a lie, a fake future-telling prophecy, a fabrication added to the scrolls by devious scribes in 400 BC.

    And the worst part, there never was a promised Messiah. Every promise of a Savior/Messiah in the Old Testament was a future-telling prophecy. Every one. If all of those prophecies were recent edits by sneaky Jewish scribes in 400 BC and were not made by the original prophets who first wrote the books, or, if they were never fulfilled by anyone, including Jesus, then the world never did have a Messiah from the line of David. No Messiah means no sacrifice was made for sins. No sacrifice for sins means no forgiveness and no salvation. None.

    That about sums up the two choices:

    1. Every patriarch in the Bible is a liar for having claimed an encounter with God and having claimed to have been given a future-telling prophecy regarding a promised land, a great nation, or a coming Messiah, thus, all of Judaism and all of Christianity are a giant conspiracy of uncounted liars covering a span of four thousand years.
    2. The prophecies were presented to the original patriarchs just as the Scriptures report them and Jesus is the fulfillment of every one of the prophecies just as the gospels, apostles, and eyewitnesses have reported.

    Which choice is backed by the best evidence and is more plausible? If you have a presupposition that everything supernatural is impossible, you will choose option one. If you presuppose a living personal God who loves His creation and has communicated with it, option two may have some appeal for you.

    As for me and my house, we have chosen to believe in the Lord.


    I noticed that all the rejections of biblical prophecy quote no extant documents written by eyewitnesses that claim the prophecies were faked. Instead, all the rejections are one of two kinds:

    1. there is not as much ancient secular literature as I would personally like to see supporting the prophecy, or,
    2. well, I have no evidence this was faked after-the-fact, but it could have been, so, I think it was

    Those are not strong counter arguments against the thousands of written extant documents of the Bible. There is no ancient written evidence that all or any of the Bible's prophecies were faked or post-dated, only unsupported allegations from modern authors.

  • Psychotic Parrot
    Psychotic Parrot

    We don't need evidence that they were fake. YOU need evidence that they were authentic. You have none. Unlucky.

    You have chosen to believe in the Lord, so you will therefore accept anything that makes him more believable = confirmation bias.

  • nicolaou
    Virtually the entire Christian faith is dependent on the truths that Jesus was born of a virgin, was born in Bethlehem, lived a perfect life, died a sacrificial death, and resurrected from death to life

    EverAStudent, what evidence would I need to provide that would satisfy you that those three things did not, could not, have happened? How can you talk of evidence and plausibility concerning such nonsense?

  • EverAStudent

    I think the question is reveresd. The Bible does exist. Its existence means it is the assertion, it is the evidence. Since it has prophecies (which have been fulfilled) the burden of proof is on the skeptic to show that NONE of those prophecies were real, that they were all written after-the-fact.

    What evidence is needed to constitute proof that every biblical prophecy was written after the event that fulfilled the prophecy? The best evidence would be to produce the original unfaked scrolls, or copies of them, you know, the scrolls that did not have the prophecies in them in the first place, the scrolls that the rogue scribes allegedly added material to centuries later. Since the Hebrew Old Testament Scriptures circulated widely wherever the people went, copies of those prophecy-free scrolls ought to be everywhere...

    Show me the copies of those scrolls and you have some solid evidence.

  • Psychotic Parrot
    Psychotic Parrot

    No one desputes that the scrolls were ever prophecy free, what is desputed is that they were (with the exception of Jesus) written before the prophecies were fulfilled. The burden of proof is on you to find evidence that they were written before, evidence which has not been found.

    In the case of Jesus and a few others, there is very little evidence that these prophecies were fulfilled as there is little evidence that Jesus existed, let alone did the things that the gospels said. There are no contemporary references to Jesus, the earliest mention of him was decades after he was said to have lived.

  • PrimateDave

    In answer to the original question: NO.

    In response to the off topic tangent about the gospel accounts of Jesus' life: All anyone has to do is read the first chapters of Matthew and Luke to know that the gospels don't even agree on the events surrounding Jesus' birth and early childhood. "Eyewitness accounts" my ars.

    As already pointed out by Leolaia and Mrs. Jones, 42 is the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything.


  • EverAStudent

    Psychotic Parrot wrote: "No one desputes that the scrolls were ever prophecy free, what is desputed is that they were (with the exception of Jesus) written before the prophecies were fulfilled. "

    So it is your personal belief that none of the Jewish Scriptures were penned until after all the prophecied events they contained had already happened in chronological history, which puts the penning of all the Jewish Scriptures at about 300 BC, 100 years after there were no more prophets in Israel.

    I actually admire that theory because it conveniently explains why there are no extant copies of prophecy-free Scriptures hanging around. But, it is hard for me to envision that there were no written Jewish Scriptures from Moses to Nehemiah and no written prophecies of promised land, release from exile, or future Messiahs for them to cling to during that 1500 years. What evidence do you present that there were no Jewish Scriptures until 300 BC?

  • Cadellin

    When I grow up, I want to be Leolaia.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    I believe that the Bible is a cultural artifact of primitive Middle-Eastern tribes and their historical offshoots. It is a collection of shepherd's fables, recalled hallucinations and "dream-time" images, entirely a product of the human mind.

    The best and most accurate prophecies were written AFTER the events they predicted took place.

    For example, I can now prophesy that man named Jimmy Carter will be a President of the United States, et voila! I am correct! AMAZING!

    If asked how I do it, I reply that I converse with invisible people. Wow! Is that impressive, or what? I am lying, of course, but you don't know that, because you want to believe.

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