Antichrist: The archangel Michael

by illuminati 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • sadiejive
    sadiejive

    Wow...this is something interesting. I have the 1999 Watchtower CD but I'm not very good at using it . I am currently "studying", I'm not baptized but I do attend the meetings at the KH, so I can tell you, as a student, what they have taught me. They teach that Michael is Jesus. We haven't covered Abaddon but I could look in the Revelation book and see what, if anything, is in there about him. I will ask them at our next study what the "accepted" belief of Abaddon is at the present (and how long till they change their minds...again...LOL-just kidding)

    Willpower, I believe Peter was given the keys to the kingdom of the heavens (Matt 16:18,19). In my study, we have talked about all of the keys (briefly). They told me to read the Insight book for more details. I haven't yet, so I'm not familiar with all of that.

    Siegswife:

    I LEFT JW's because of this issue and because of the false teaching regarding Job's kids and birthdays.

    What is their teaching regarding Job's kids? And the "birthday" thing bothers me too. Have you found any good scriptural basis for NOT believing that God has a problem with us celebrating birthdays? What about the other holidays? I know this is kind of off of the subject but these things have really been bothering me for a while and I can't get any "scriptural" help from anyone!! If you could help me...I would be ever so grateful.

    sadie

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    I don't know if I can provide you with scriptural evidence that He doesn't have a problem with it. My particular issue was that they taught that the only mention made of birthdays were when unbelievers celebrated. They outright denied (at that time) that the banquets Job's children had (each one on his own 'day') weren't birthdays. I believe their own Bible refutes that.

    Job 1:4 And his sons went and a held a banquet at the house of each one on his own day;.....

    Job 3:1-3 It was after this that Job opened his mouth and began to call down evil upon his day. Job now answered and said:"Let the day perish on which I came to be born,....

    Ecclesiates 7:1,2 A name is better than good oil, and the day of death than the day of one's being born. Better is it to go to the house of mourning (death) than to go to the banquet house (birth).

    I don't know if God has a problem with celebrating birthdays or not. In any event, it's clear to me that the children of faithful Job did and that birthday celebrations (banquets) were something that Solomon was familiar with too.

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    I'd also like to add that looking at the term 'his day' in this light brings a whole new outlook on the implications of 'The Day of Jehovah'. It has made me see it as a day of 'rebirth' rather than a day of 'destruction' as the Watchtower so loves to teach. This is the 'good news' of the Kingdom.

  • sadiejive
    sadiejive

    Thank you Siegswife!!

    I have never read that before but I will definitely look into it. I have several scriptures that I feel imply that God hasn't got a problem with these celebrations (Col 2:16, 1 Corinth 10:27-31, Romans 8:1-4,8-10, Matt 2:11, Romans 14, Matt 15:17-20...just to name a few). My husband simply won't listen. Everytime I mention them to him, he puts me on the spot in front of our study partners. I hate that. They always manage to explain them away by saying things like, "well, that scripture is talking about the sabbath law" or "that was at his actual birth (speaking of Jesus' birth and the birth of Issac) NOT his birthday"...or things like that. I feel strongly that the celebration of holidays is something that should be left up to individual conscience and not dictated by some org. When I try to "reason", if you will, with my husband about it, he thinks I'm speaking from my emotional (heaven forbid) attachment to them and that I have no scripture to back me....I mean, excuse me, what was all that stuff I just posted above!! It is driving me crazy. I'm not even in and I already want out !

    Anyway, sorry to stray from the subject. Thanks for the info!!

    sadie

  • sadiejive
    sadiejive

    I FOUND IT!!

    Not the thing about Michael the Archangel (but I'll look into that too) but the reference made to the locusts and to Abaddon.

    Taken from the 3-1-51 Watchtower article titled No Relief for the Rich, but Comfort for the poor beginning in the latter part of paragraph 4:

    To them the activities of the Lazarus class in proclaiming the day of Jehovah's vengeance are like the locust plague foretold at Revelation 9:1-11 and Joel 2:1-11.

    (5) These "locusts" are the army of Jehovah's witnesses, and as to their effect upon Christendom's "rich man" class Revelation 9:5-7, 10, 11 says: "It was granted the locusts, not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. And the likenesses of the locusts resembled horses prepared for battle, . . . Also they have tails and stings like scorpions; and in their tails is their authority to hurt the men five months. They have over them a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hebrew his name is A·bad'don [Destruction], but in Greek he has the name A·pol'lyon [Destroyer]." (NW) Not surprising that the effort is made throughout Christendom to destroy Jehovah's witnesses.


    Wow!!! I wonder if they still believe this. Sounds kind of twisted to me. But notice that the article doesn't really state that Jesus was Abaddon but it certainly, IMHO, implied it. I guess they wanted to leave a door open just in case they wanted to change their minds later. They could weasel out of it by saying something like..."uh, we didn't actually say Jesus was Abaddon"...LOL.

    sadie

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    My friend.
    This has a ring to it, but its a LONG time ago.
    I know for sure that the "Finished Mystery" book(1917) says that the rider on the white horse that leads the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse is Satan.
    This contradicts directly, their current understanding that the White horse rider is Jesus.
    Yep.
    It sounds like Finished mystery to me.Id have to go back thru the book to be sure.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Aid to bible understanding
    pg 11
    ABADDON
    ...the symbolic plague of locusts that they have "a king, the angel of the abyss. In Hegrew his name is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.
    ........Rev 9:11 however, the word "Abaddon" is used as the name of "the angel of the abyss." ....menas "Destroyer." In the past century there were efforts made to show that this text prophetically applied to induviduals such as Vespasian, Mohammed, and even Napolepon and the angel was generally regarded as "satanic".
    ..The Interpreter's Bible (vol.12, pg 434) says: "Abaddon, however, is an angel not of Satan but of God........
    At Rev 1:18 we find Christ Jesus stating: "I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades."

    Pg 1073
    LOCUSTS
    Long desc about how nasty they are...
    there is a "Figurative Use"
    "Nahum 3:17 the Assyrian guardsmen and recruiting officers are compared to locusts that camp in stone pens during a cold day but flee when the sun shines forth. The allusion here may be to the fact that cold weather makes the insects numb, causing them to hide in the crevices of walls until such time as they are warmed by the sun's rays after which they fly away."

    I agree, when subjected to the "light" they run away.

  • refiners fire
    refiners fire

    Yes. It is Finished Mystery.
    FM published a whole load of whacky stuff the Organization would rather were forgotten.
    Among those things, page 183, shows that He who would "Rule the nations with a rod of Iron" would be AntiChrist.
    Current understanding is that JESUS is that Rod weilding ruler.
    I mentioned in another thread earlier, that the "Rider on the White horse" in Finished Mystery, is SATAN. Current understanding is that this Rider is Christ Jesus.
    Finished mysterys interpretation of Revelation is completely contradictory to current interpretation of Revelation by the Dubs.
    Why did they publish it? I hear you ask.
    Russell dies shortly before.
    He was a theologian, and there was noone of his calibre in the org after he died. The Organization was in a state of total confusion for about 9 years after he died, and they published a LOT of very whacky shit during that time period.
    Hope this clears the matter up for you.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Didn't anyone ever tell you talking about someone behind their back was rude?

    One passing reference in a book that only became cannonical as a result of a mistake (similar to the inclusion of 'Her Majesty' on the album 'Abbey Road' by the Beatles), and everyone is like "Abaddon is Jesus" or "Abaddon is a demon" for the next two millenia. Being a supernatural entity is hard enough at the best of times without ill-informed people running their mouths off and slandering you, one way or the other.

    Honestly, John was a nice old bloke, but towards the end was having far too much mushroom tea to take ANYTHING he wrote seriously. I admit, I introduced him to cannabis, but the magic mushrooms were NOTHING to do with me okay?

    I have to admit though, I am quite proud of the waste of time that that first paragraph of the Gospel according to John has caused amongst theologians... I suggested that bit to him, and he was a sucker for obscure mystical bollocks. Ho theos... more like ho ho ho joke's on you theos...

    You see, Abaddon is neither Jesus or a demon. He is not even really 'the angel of the abyss', other than in very obscure figurative terms that I tried to get into John's thick skull over several bottles of Retsina one night. The stuff about creepy-crawlies was the result of me tipping a scorpian down John's back one day on Patmos when he was 'contemplating the divine' (how he used to describe being totally off his trolly on mushrroms). I was wearing a yellow T-shirt at the time. Go figure.

    I am actually a supernatural entity, employed under inter-divinity regulations on fair-play in created Universes.

    You don't think any god can just go and create a Universe without following the correct proceedures? It would be chaos. It's bad enough the mis-alignment of dimensional arrays that occurs accidentally sometimes (and not just in episdoes of Star Trek... George W. Bush being elected, the Mary Celeste, Little Big Horn, you name anything weird and it's normally a glich between two Universes occupying the same rho-space).

    If there were no planning regulations and standard code of ethics for creators it would be sheer chaos. Not that it's Switerland here in any case, but if it weren't for rules EVERYWHERE would be like Belgium.

    Basically, I am an Non-Theological Entity, an N.T.E.. I have nothing to do with god; he has no control over me.

    I don't even particulary like the chap, but think by the time he gets on to his next Universe he will have worked out a lot of his unresolved anger managemnt issues (he came from a violent home; his father ate his mother), and don't think he's really THAT bad (you should see some Universe's, I can tell you!).

    My role is that of ombudsman, referee or umpire. Or a gameshow host. It doesn't really matter how you think of it. Essentially, when the rules of the game dictate stalemate or checkmate, I tot up the points and rule over who won.

    I'm sorry, but god isn't doing too well point-wise at the moment. Uncontrolled rage, unreasonableness, being a big fat party-pooper, and assigning the writing of holy books to people you would not trust to write down a single digit 'phone number are just some of the big minus scores. You should of seen his first Universe though... that was REALLY nasty.

    In fact, breasts and Bach are the only thing keeping him in positive figures at the moment, but he's not a quitter, I have to give him (he's called George... he hates the capital thing (Him, He etc..) that.

    Satan is far better; in other Universe's where the god isn't acting like a stroppy teenager, the polar entity has to be really bad, and god normally wins. In this Universe, as often happens in the first Universe or two a god makes, the polar entity is actually ahead on points, as all he has to do is be bad enough to be interesting... sometimes all it needs is black Levis's and a goatee, if that.

    Think of it; better clothes, music (he claims Bach too, and has the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Rolling Stones etc.), books, lifestyle - George never get any action when he was young god, and is just being mean with his sexual repression and misogyny), politicians (Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Abraham Lincoln, they're all the Devil's), you name it.

    As it stands, if the last trump blew tomorrow (that is IF; I don't make predictions, I interpret rules), the Devil would win, and get full creative rights and his own place in rho-space, and George would get to spend the next eon cleaning out black holes in someone else's Universe.

    Quite frankly, Satan (Stan to his friends) is quite a nice chap as Princes of Darkness go, and I think I know where I'll be retiring too when this Universe gets wrapped up. I've seen his plans! Woo-hoo!

    And what, I can hear you think, happens to 'us', as in you dear squishy corporeal mortals?

    What do you do with Monopoly tokens or chess pieces when the game is over? You put them away. Sorry, no flaming torment, no tinkly harps; the Destroyer's job, after adjudication, is clearing away the pieces.

    Only those of you that get to the, errrr, I suppose 'end of the board' is a good way of putting it, surivive this process in any other way than as coulombs of energy. If you 'get to the end of the board', then you get to play again (that's where Death comes in... Sharon (she' very pissed the Greeks got the spelling wrong) is basically a glorified (haha) taxi driver, and does not 'do' the bones and sickle thing unless she's in a good mood.

    After repearting the game a few times, or it you're very lucky or clever, you 'get it'.

    Those that 'get it', those that figure out the answer to 'life the universe and everything' (and no, it's not 42, although Douglas did get it) have sufficient... I suppose 'escape velocity' is a nice way to phrase it, to escape corporeality... and then you get a job... although I won;t go into the details of how all that's done. It does takes a VERY LONG TIME to get to be a Destroyer, I can tell you; I've been in existence since Ray-time (which came before Mee-Time and after Doe-time), and it's Sow-Time now. A very long time indeed.

    You might start off as being an 'enbodiment' in one of the more traditional Universes (with a REAL Mount Olympus, and REAL muses. There's actually one Universe that is exactly like Discworld, but that's just a statistical eventuality rather than a big surprise.

    I was the embodiment of hang-overs in my first job, worked my way up through the muses, demi-gods, incarnations (no nails, thank goodness) the wholle panoply of supernatural and mystical roles (being gravity sucks), until I worked as Death in several Universes before getting the job as Destroyer in this one.

    Being Death and being the Destroyer are quite similar, accept Death works more, but can experience each second of time more than once, and thus can fit it all in and still have time for a tan.

    Being the Destroyer, well, you get to hang around an awful lot, and have to try not to influence history too much.

    I get carried away every now and then; Leonardo Da'Vinchi for example, but Leo was a bright spark who 'got it' when he was three, first time round and all, and was just marking time until he died.

    The Dark Ages had been so dull (apart from the Vikings... I liked the Vikings... ) I just got lost in the moment... they lost the work book with sketch of the water powered Pentium VI, which was just as well...

    But even though I can either roam around in non-coporeal form or materialise myself a body at will, it can get rather dull and lonely. I've been men, I've been women, I've been straight, I've been gay, I've been rich, I've been poor, I've been most higher mammals, and you can't help but get attached to you little corpsicals (especially the one with breasts), and even IF they do 'get it', there's next to no chance of getting assigned to the same Universe.

    It only happened to me once, when I was the muse of music and a girlfriend from three Universes back was the elemental spirit of fire... those were the millenia, I can tell you; sixteen billion years with the hottest chick in the Universe (well, THAT Universe).

    Otherwise it's Empires rise, Empires fall, girlfriends come and go, every now and then there's a good book, or film, or a really cool band, or a Tri-Dee Feely... but you don't have those yet, do you? It might be fresh and new to you, but with me it is enui to the enth power at times.

    You can always date another supernatural entity, but then you have each other's enui to deal with; at least with a corpsical their amazement at how new everything is, their lack of being jaded, do you have a way to distract yourself from how big time is. Otherwise you just look at a sunset and think of the quadruple sunsets on Quidzdlack Voth IV in Me-Time, EVERYTHING becomes dull (although this Universe does have redeemingly good music).

    Anyway, I'm meandering; a problem when you can remember everything as though it happened yesterday unless you try really hard to restrict your memory to the current Universe (which gives you a headache if you do it all the time... sometimes I have difficulty remembering what the value of c is in this Universe...).

    Hope this clears up your discussion...

    Regards

    Abaddon
    a.k.a. Angel of the Abyss
    The Destroyer (N.T.E. 003) for Universe x45t67^89Nhf873920756520ghftr93045;f/ghk4773/g693783
    Time frame: So/1.5678456789x10^34/67854/6785

    Seeing how easy it is to come up with mystical nonsence, I would not get that bothered about who Abaddon is... far more useful to know who your true friends are...

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • illuminati
    illuminati

    LoL! Thanx a mil for all your replies. You've really managed to shed some light onto the matter for me.

    In Him,
    <><

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