by foolsparadise 59 Replies latest jw friends
VOMIT ALERT!
*** jv chap. 15 p. 220 Development of the Organization Structure ***As Karl Klein, who became a member of the Governing Body in 1974, later wrote: "Brother Rutherford’s prayers at morning worship . . . endeared him to me. Though he had such a powerful voice, when addressing God he sounded just like a little boy talking to his daddy. What a fine relationship with Jehovah that revealed!"
Narkissos
For the moment I was sidestepping the critical apparatus of the story being fiction or true or embellished, but that is a good discussion in itself.
How the story came to be known or recounted is a void. How would a playwrite or story teller write or create this event to tie down certain loose ends in the Messiah narrative. If a Jew wrote the story or an Asian or African wrote the story how would it change the details, which 'Jewish' things would be important and over looked. Like in the Talmud, is the devil a literary device or personification of evil. Taking for the moment that it happened would Jesus as a devout Jew quote a Hebrew, Greek or Aramaic text, or as many Christians believe Jesus pre-existed his appearance on earth was he quoting himself in Deuteronomy. If he is quoting himself would he paraphrase the text or be precise to the original.
designs,
Imo the author of the Greek text (of Matthew 4, or "Q" for some) made the story just as likely as he saw fit to his audience -- LXX quotations included. The text doesn't smack of translation or adaptation... Now what you would change to the story to make it look more 'Palestine-Jewish' is up to your imagination of what 'Palestine-Jewish' should look like... If you perceive the divine name "missing" and nothing else, maybe it's just your JW background speaking...
As a side note, the mouth of God, stoma theou -- Dt 8:3 LXX = Matthew 4:4 is much less reminiscent of the Tetragrammaton to a Jewish Greek-speaking reader than the usual substitution (anarthrous kurios, like in the two other Deuteronomy quotes: to the average Greek reader, kurios ho theos sou sounds quite Jewish already!) -- but in the NWT it's "Jehovah" just the same...
Dear Narkissos,
Would you care to comment on whether the divine name would have been enunciated in the 1st. century,before 70 A.D ,
or would Jews (Jesus included) avoid doing so ?
Is there any evidence that is firm,either way ?
May I take this opportunity to thank you very much for your learned contributions to this board.
Love
Wobble
Yes we have to be cognizant of our religious upbringing. I was impressed however with the Dead Sea Scroll exhibit Greg and I visited a couple of years ago. Its pretty unmistakable the care these copyists took when it came to The Name writing it in Paleohebraic characters to make it stand out from the main text on the scroll. It is stunning, this community knew their history.
wobble,
The only sure thing is that Judaism, in Palestine and in the diaspora, was incredibly diverse down to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. It could be, precisely because as long as the Jerusalem temple was there the Jewish identity did not rest exclusively on a particular collection of books in a particular language, let alone a particular interpretation. Literary creation (not just of the exegetic kind), alternative beliefs and practices could thrive within the broad scope of Judaism. Philo of Alexandria was no less a Jew than the writers of Qumran or Hillel or James the Just or Judas the Galilean or the high priest, or even Paul -- although they would have disagreed on practically everything, or more likely not understood each other at all.
To your question, it is almost certain that the "divine name" was used in some circles and avoided by many others. There is evidence both ways. Even in the Greek-speaking sphere it is both (as evidenced by the various recensions of the LXX). So it depends where you locate your "historical Jesus"... this is a matter for guesswork.
The NT texts, otoh, are facts inasmuch as they are established by a number of direct and indirect witnesses (manuscripts, translations, quotations). Facts of different times, places and communities. The only thing that might suggest that they once included some form of the divine name (in spite of 100 % material evidence to the contrary so far) would be compelling conclusions from literary (rhetorical, narrative) analysis of specific passages.
P.S.: this is where we have left the discussion last time: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/174104/1/Nehemia-Gordon-and-the-pronunciation-of-the-tetragrammaton
The only sure thing is that Judaism, in Palestine and in the diaspora, was incredibly diverse down to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
That's a point Frank Shaw makes in his dissertation too if I can quote it. He also argues it is a mistake to expect there to have been a linear progession toward disuse of the divine name. Different communities no doubt had different reasons for their usage and there may have been various intervals of revival and abatement in use of the divine name that the available evidence cannot hope to sketch out fully.
Thanks all,
Re-reading the thread that Narkissos linked us to,including Nehemia Gordon's essay, and your answers on here, have been an education for me.
I still have the feeling that the WT/JW use of "jehovah " is mainly a device to shore-up their doctrines ,and therefore is disrespectful in reality, as their doctrines are false. Most JW's do not appreciate the meaning contained in YHWH and do not realise that the god of the N.T is very different from their "Jehovah "
I also feel that if usage of any particular name for God the Father were necessary, or important, then in scripture, N.T, it would be made plain.
As has been shown "In the name of Jesus,every knee should bend " is the N.T injunction.
Love
Wobble
slimboyfat,
I could not agree more -- especially on the "linear" illusion.
Now where does that leave the notion of "regular Jew" and "Jews" in your previous post?
Did "1st-century Jews" believe in soul survival, resurrection, torment in Gehenna, a davidic Messiah, heavenly Melchizedeq, the Son of Man, etc.? Yes AND no. Some definitely did and some definitely didn't. What would a "regular Jew" believe? Just anything, depending on his personal trajectory in, through or between different circles. What did "Jews" do with the divine name? The answers are all over the place and you can locate a "regular Jew" just anywhere.
Now when it comes to the NT texts it is different. They have their agendas, ideologies, rhetorics which situate them somewhere on the map (geographically, culturally and ideologically). And some of them do refer to and use the themeof the "divine name" in a number of ways. It's the field of exegesis which works on a specific object (the texts). Here we are not in the desert open to any fantasy but in a highly constructed place which limits the play of imagination.
What about Mr.Jehovah
