What/Who are the Saints?

by PSacramento 62 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Now, that said, Temple Prostitutes?

    Dude !!

    See for instance the reference to them in 2 Kings 23:6-7: "And he brought out the asherah (image) that was in the Temple of Yahweh from Jerusalem to the wadi Kidron and burned it to ashes....And he tore down the house of the qdshym that was in the Temple of Yahweh, where the women were weaving clothes for (the goddess) Asherah". There is however debate on whether the term should be translated as "cult prostitute" (as opposed to "priestess" or "one set apart for sacral duties") and whether sacral prostitution even existed as such in the ANE (see Stephanie Budin's The Myth of Sacred Prostitution in Antiquity, 2008, Cambridge University Press).

  • snowbird

    TheListener, I believe "and" (kai in Greek) doesn't necessarily mean "in addition to."


  • PSacramento


    You raise a valid question.

    But does Paul ever state that there ate different classes of Christians ?

    No, so we must look elsewhere for the answer to your question.

  • Narkissos

    The Listener,

    It's quite a stretch to distinguish two groups in those texts, especially in view of the syntax of the article: in both texts one article applies to both substantives coordinated through the conjunction kai, making it even clearer that both apply to the same people as a kind of compound address:

    tois en Kolo/assais hagiois kai pistois adelphois en Khristô [Ièsou] = to the saint-and-faithful brethren in Christ [Jesus] in Colossae.
    tois hagiois [pasin] [tois ousin] [en Ephesô] kai pistois en Khristô Ièsou = to [all] the saints [that are] [in Ephesus] and faithful in Christ Jesus.

    PS & Leolaia,

    "Prostitute" is certainly a misleading term for the qdshym/qdshwt, for its negative connotation at least; the noun means nothing but "holy, sacred, consecrated"; however sexual implications are obvious in Genesis 38:21f (// v. 15 zwnh "prostitute"; same parallelism in Hosea 4:14). The context of the other occurrences (Job 36:14; and 1 Kings 14:24; 15:12; 22:47; 2 Kings 23:7 which echo the Deuteronomy 23:18 prohibition) is too weak to ascertain their exact function (besides the connection with Asherah). A connection with the "women serving at the entrance of the Tent of Meeting" in Exodus 38:8 and 1 Samuel 2:22 (the latter text indicating that they were normally not to have sex with the priests, as PS suggested) is likely imo.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Sad emo

    DD - what does faith have to do with it?


    Gal 3:21

    Is the Law then against the promises of God? Let it not be said ! For if a law had been given which could have given life, indeed righteousness would have been out of Law.

    Did they have faith in the promise of a Messiah? A Messiah wasn't promised until later in history. Rahab wasn't even one of the chosen people, how could she have had faith in a Jewish Messiah? In fact, reading the account, she was 'merely' negotiating with the spies to save herself and her family - and working within God's will - as opposed to turning the spies in. I might hazard to guess that they had faith in God's power, justice and mercy.

    The Messiah was promised in the garden.

    Gen 3:15

    And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

    Rahab knew who Jews were. She knew God would send the messiah through them.

    Heb 11:31

    By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace.

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    DD if you believe that the first 5 books were all written in their entirety by Moses, there's no point in me discussing whether or not people such as Rahab were expecting a Messiah.

    Re your reply to my question about what faith has to do with whether people can live a Christlike life without believing in his sacrifice - it doesn't answer the question at all.

    Quite simply, there ARE people who DO try to live by the principles taught in the gospels, whether or not they have ever even heard the gospel. Here's a scary thought - some might even be ATHEISTS!!!!!!! the shock, the horror!!!

    Unless you are one who believes that the verses I quoted from Matthew's Gospel about the final judgement apply only to the seperation of good/bad Christians as opposed to the universal judgement, I don't see how you can deny that there are non-Christians who feed the hungry, visit the sick etc.

    Note from that passage also that Jesus doesn't mention belief in him or his sacrifice - only the evildoers and the righteous.

    Hoping you don't turn down the party invitation

    “Now his older son was in the field. And as he came and drew near to the house, he heard music and dancing. So he called one of the servants and asked what these things meant. And he said to him, ‘Your brother has come, and because he has received him safe and sound, your father has killed the fatted calf.’ “But he was angry and would not go in. Therefore his father came out and pleaded with him. So he answered and said to his father, ‘Lo, these many years I have been serving you; I never transgressed your commandment at any time; and yet you never gave me a young goat, that I might make merry with my friends. But as soon as this son of yours came, who has devoured your livelihood with harlots, you killed the fatted calf for him.’
    “And he said to him, ‘Son, you are always with me, and all that I have is yours. It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’”

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Sad emo

    Do you really believe you can keep the law?

    If you stand before God with anything other than the righteous deeds of Christ, you'll be naked, you will die in you sins.

    Isa 64:6

    But we are all as an unclean thing , and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

  • JosephMalik

    I just looked things over quickly but the argument was made by some that a Saint is a believer in Christ, one that has been called out to be his disciple. This is true. A Saint is someone that makes more Saints under the command: Matt. 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Another way to say this is: Joh 14:23 Jesus replied," (If anyone loves me," he will obey my ‘teaching: My Father will love him," are we will come to him are ‘make our home with him: ‘ So a Saint is not someone that belongs to some denomination and follows their teachings, but someone that obeys the commandments of Christ that his Father gave him to teach. Joh 14:24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching: These ‘words you hear as not my own? they belong to the Father who ‘sent me: ‘ And there are many other texts that demonstrate this.

    Now some think that a Saint is someone just keeps a few commandments that were intended to make good people. Many of such good people will also be chosen to be in the kingdom when our Lord returns so such commandments were good. But such thinking falls short since good people, also called sheep in scripture do not make Saints. Some mentioned Ghandi and wonder what he was? Believing that Christ was good but not keeping His commandments does not qualify anyone to be a Saint if we believe what our Lord taught.


  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    I knew you'd pull that scripture out of the bag DD!

    Do you really believe you can keep the law?

    If you stand before God with anything other than the righteous deeds of Christ, you'll be naked, you will die in you sins.

    Of course not, otherwise there would have been no need for Christ's sacrifice!

    What I'm suggesting is that God might declare someone righteous if He wishes - even if it is without their knowledge. Like Abraham and Rahab, they are 'working out their salvation, for it is God who is working in them' (See Philippians 2:12-13) - I'm a great believer in deathbed conversions - well if the thief on the cross could....!

    How do you see these verses in Romans 2:

    All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares

    Or these:

    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

    Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    Sad emo

    It appears that we agree on much. Someone could come to faith in Christ at any point till death.

    What I'm suggesting is that God might declare someone righteous if He wishes - even if it is without their knowledge. Like Abraham and Rahab, they are 'working out their salvation, for it is God who is working in them' (See Philippians 2:12-13) - I'm a great believer in deathbed conversions - well if the thief on the cross could....!

    My question about faith stands. In every example you can name, God always grants the GIFT of faith. Because without faith, it is impossible to please him.

    Explain to me what you mean. How can anyone live a "Christlike life" in the flesh? One would have to be perfect to be "Christlike", since He was perfect.

    What would you say was "Christlike" about the thief on the cross? He had no works to speak of until he expressed faith in Christ.

    How could an atheist be "Christlike"?

    I believe as a Christian, I can only stand before God based on FAITH in the works (His life and death on the cross) of Christ, not in my good deeds. All my good deeds (even today), no matter how nice I think they are, are but filthy rags in the sight of God.

    Php 3:8

    Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--

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