'Sign of the times'

by wantstoleave 14 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • wantstoleave

    As someone who is still wading my way through fading/leaving.....Im looking for thoughts on 'signs of the times'. Example, 'earthquakes in one place after another'......things like that. World powers etc......peace and security....basically anything that has been taken from the bible to signify living in the last days.

    I have to admit, when I hear about all the earthquakes around the place, especially in recent years being so many, I get a shiver of fear. Does anyone else? What about things like Korea and Russia....world power wise. And then waiting for the call of peace and security.

    What are your takes on things mentioned in the bible, and drummed into us, and them being a sign of the last days?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    Have a look at this and tells us what you think of it.




  • Witness 007
    Witness 007

    Mate we once had two WORLD WARS....millions died. The last 60 years has been reasonable. There has ALWAYS been earthquakes since before man......there is always "peace and security" before war breaks out.

  • Narkissos


    The magical bubble of "Bible prophecies" (in the sense of long-range predictions making up a "script" of events to happen in the future, close or distant) can be burst in a number of ways. Wrapping your head around history, what it is and how it works, the part of chance and free interaction of many things and subjects it involves every minute, may help you realise that the future cannot be actually written in advance anywhere, anymore than you can get the weather forecast for next month exactly right, for exactly the same reason: over a certain number of parameters prediction is strictly impossible, unless they are no parameters at all and we are just characters and props in an already shot movie -- in which case any sense of "we" implodes. That's probably the shortest way for even a mildly rational mind.

    Now if your idea of "God" prevents you from reaching such a conclusion by a "rationalistic" way, because the Bible can be a magical book after all, I'm afraid you'll have to embark in the more difficult (although interesting) task of historical exegesis: figuring out how the texts were written and what they were originally about, how their first meanings were lost and drifted along the centuries to become material for modern prophecy-making.

    You will then find how the "Olivet discourse" was modified from Mark 13 to Matthew 24 and Luke 17; 21, how "the coming of the Son of Man" was expected before, along with, immediately after and then much later than Jerusalem's fall to the Romans in 70 AD. You will analyse the context of 1 Thessalonians and find out that "peace and security" is actually not a forewarning sign, but the normal state of events (like people "eating, drinking, marrying, buying, selling" in Luke 17) before the "day" comes "like a thief in the night" (i.e. anytime). And you will see how this "no-sign scenario" is explicitly contradicted in 2 Thessalonians 2. You will notice how a number of early Christians thought they were the "last generation" before the perspective changed...

    Actually you will get back to the first approach: understanding how history works, only within the Bible itself.

  • wantstoleave

    He's a good speaker...and what a great head of hair! Fascinating stuff. I only got to 9 mins in...can you paraphrase the rest of it for me?

  • wantstoleave

    Thanks Narkissos......I enjoyed reading your explanation.....

    Can someone tell me how/who then interpreted the bible into the teachings we have today? We have been taught to understand that the GB receives holy spirit, but has it solely been them that makes the rules? I really dont know as much as I should about something Ive believed all my life.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    It been a while since I watched it, but it suggests that we are living in a much better era than cults lead us to believe. He has some good arguments to back that up.

    The same goes for earthquakes etc. Higher populations in vulnerable areas lead to more deaths during a major event, but the frequency of major events is not changing. Even the WT has backtracked on its suggestion that there has been an increase in earthquakes because it simply isn't true. The statistics they used to quote were used dishonestly and they had to stop using them.



  • Hopscotch

    Hi wantsto

    About the GB thing - have you read Crisis of Conscience by Ray Franz (the GB member who was df'd)? If not it is definitely worth reading as it is a real eye opener into the goings on within the GB and he tells how they reach a lot of their decisions. I got a copy from our local library and then went and bought it.

    The Steve Pinker video is worth watching all the way through. I saw it some time ago and found it really does help clear things in your mind about the so called 'critical times' we are supposedly living in. I downloaded it and watched it when I had the time (easy with download helper on firefox).

    And I know this is not really answering your question but I found what really helped give me time to clear my head of all this end time fear that had been programmed into me was to stop watching the news and reading the papers. Takes a bit to do it if you're like we were and watched the news religiously but after a few weeks you find you don't miss it at all. I've watched it twice in the last 12 months and wished I hadn't. I find if there is something that you really need to know about you will find out about it anyway. But getting right out of the news loop really helped calm my fears and put things in perspective.

    All the best


  • Doug Mason
    Doug Mason

    Jesus warned his disciples to watch out for deceivers claiming to come in his authority. That's all he told them to watch out for. Indeed, the disciples were already hearing those deceivers. These deceivers would be pointing to events such as wars (etc.) but these were not indications that the end is yet.

    Nowhere does Jesus say they would hear about big wars, many nations, lots of casualties, etc., etc. He only said, "you will hear about wars BECAUSE nations and kingdoms will fight". The 1914-1919 Great War was not the first time there was a war! Relatively speaking, it pales in comparison with the 30 years war between France and England, and it also pales when compared with WW2 of 1939-1945.

    The GB/WTS cannot point to 1914 as a turning point in regards to other disasters (earthquakes, famines, disease, etc.).

    Nowhere does Jesus use the word "increase" (or similar).

    Nowhere does Jesus says "there will be an increase in the number or casualties from earthquakes, in the number of earthquakes, or in their intensity". No, he just said you will hear about these things, but what you need to watch out for are the deceivers.

    If these days are really so bad, in which age would you prefer to live, and why?

    And CTR consistently expected 1914 to usher in the period of unprecedented PEACE. When every one of his expectations for 1914 failed, the WTS amended the word "before" to read "after", and kept selling his books. CTR said it was a marked year, but it was marked for peace. He did not use wars as a sign.


  • bluecanary

    I like the way one Bible (The Message) translates Matthew 24: 4-8: "Jesus said, "Watch out for doomsday deceivers. Many leaders are going to show up with forged identities, claiming, 'I am Christ, the Messiah.' They will deceive a lot of people. When reports come in of wars and rumored wars, keep your head and don't panic. This is routine history; this is no sign of the end. Nation will fight nation and ruler fight ruler, over and over. Famines and earthquakes will occur in various places. This is nothing compared to what is coming."

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