"My God and My Lord" Ps. 35:23 - Need OT version

by jonathan dough 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    To me it's a reminiscence rather than a quote. And whatever the case it doesn't affect the meaning of John 20:28 at all. Assuming that it does would boil down to committing the same mistake as the WT does when it inserts Jehovah into a OT quote in the NT because Yhwh was in the original(i.e., the text being quoted, not the text quoting); what matters to the meaning of an OT quotation / allusion in the NT is how the NT writer words and uses the quote, NOT what the quote meant in OT context (which the NT writer very often ignores).

    Now in that case it is interesting that the LXX of Psalm 35[34]:23 does have the kind of kurios which usually substitutes the Tetragrammaton, only in the first part of the verse (where no divine name is found in Hebrew and inserting one would break the meter):
    exegerthèti kurie kai proskhes tè krisei mou ho theos mou kai ho kurios mou eis tèn dkèn mou.

    The latter highlighted expression (correctly understood by the LXX as parallel possessives, not possessive + DN) is indeed almost the same as that which is found in John 20:28 (ho kurios mou kai ho theos mou), only the terms kurios and theos come in reverse order.

    The insertion of kurie in the first clause ("Rise up, Lord") which seems to substitute a DN although there was none in the 'original' is actually a pretty frequent case (another famous example is in the quotation of the LXX version of Psalm 102 in Hebrew 1). This is just one case among many showing that textual transmission is fluid and diverse, making it impossible to reach 100 % certainty about where the name was or wasn't in "the original", and turning the very concept of one "original" very questionable, and all the more so when important collections rather than individual short units are concerned. For instance, it has been shown that the composition of the book of Psalms includes a DN revision from Yhwh to 'lhym (God) on one important section (42--89) which is presupposed by doublets in the latter section. So the process of writing and revision actually overlap.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    My second question is, do we have enough proof to say that Thomas quoted from the Psalms in John 20 v28 ?

    I'm not saying he quoted Psalms although that could have been running through his mind, but it is a reasonable concluson that as an apostle and a monotheistic Jew he was familiar with 35:23 and it would be illogical that he would have used those words referring to the risen Christ if He were just a man. The Society sees the weakness here. Hence, the change.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    If we do then by the WT's own twisted way of translating they should put "My Lord and my Jehovah" in John 20v28 which, ironically is probably what Thomas was conveying, My Lord (God) and my YHWH ( the one who causes the promises to come about) of course this would shatter the weird WT theology.

    Good point.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    Okay, then, is it safe to say that there is not a single "Bible" in existence today on the face of the earth (other than the NWT and excluding a questionable rendering of the Aleppo Codex) where Ps. 53:23 reads:

    "My God, even Jehovah?" Including every "Jewish Bible?"

    JD II

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Considering the number of existing Bible versions, this is never a safe thing to say... :)

    However I would think it even more improbable to find it in a(n orthodox) Jewish version since it is highly unlikely to "correct" the Masoretic text.

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough
    Considering the number of existing Bible versions, this is never a safe thing to say... :)

    Yes, I stand corrected on that. And I thank you again.

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    "excluding a questionable rendering of the Aleppo Codex"


    What does this mean?

    In the Aleppo Codex, it is not written as "My God and even Jehovah."

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    "excluding a questionable rendering of the Aleppo Codex"


    What does this mean?
    In the Aleppo Codex, it is not written as "My God and even Jehovah."

    Oh, I thought that was what you were saying above. So I'm confused. How is it written in the Aleppo Codex?

  • possible-san
    possible-san

    "My God, even Jehovah?" Including every "Jewish Bible?"

    There is no divine name in that part in the following Bibles (Jewish Bible) I have.

    (1) "The Jerusalem Bible" (Koren Publishers Jerusalem, 2000. Printed in Israel).

    (2) "JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH" (The Jewish Publication Society, 1999).

    possible

  • jonathan dough
    jonathan dough

    thanks.

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