What are the “fruits” that we are supposed to recognize?

by bluecanary 28 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  wantingtruth

  Joseph M,

  indeed the fruits means the teachings, or God's words ,

  or, the way these "prophets" speak in the name of the Lord.

  why ?

  because Jesus commanded to his true followers

  "What I tell you in the darkness, speak ye in the light; and what ye hear in the ear, proclaim upon the house-tops."

  and also Peter has told to the "sheperds" 1 Peter 4:

  11. If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. NIV

  both "speaking the very words of God" and obeying them means "worshiping God"

  by speaking incorectly "the very words of God" will result in disobeying "the very words of God"

  this is sure

  rus v.
• 

  JosephMalik

  wantingtruth,

  Very good rus v. See how we can help each other if we are reasonable and have Christ instead of an organization as our hope. Thanks for your thoughts.

  Joseph
• 

  BluesBrother

  Jesus' words were from the Sermon On The Mount and stated before any doctrine had been laid down. What did Jesus mean at that time?

  IMHO He was getting at sincerity and a real commitment to practise Christianity (not that I can say that I do) The context of the words follow the 'Golden Rule" and admonition to "Go in through the narrow gate" and to be on the watch for false prophets. He next says that not everyone claiming to be Christian really would be one.

  So a track record of "preaching the Kingdom" is not in itself evidence of the "fruits"..It cannot be applied to an organization. It is a quality of the heart and may be evidenced in various ways.
• 

  JosephMalik

  BluesBrothers,

  I know but the Kingdom is composed of many individuals not all of whom will be Christians or disciples. Many will simply be good people of the Nations who will have the opportunity to wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb at that time. A disciple on the other hand (not those that simply try to be such and find themselves back in the world) will be concerned about more than just being a decent human being. They will be concerned with: Mt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Ac 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

  Joseph
• 

  wantingtruth

  Hi Joseph ,

  I agree with your above statement

  only now I realise that you are speaking things correctly

  I mean, I did not checked your previous posts on this forum (they are about 1400 )

  what do you say regarding this my post ?

  friendly,

  rus v. from romania
• 

  lisavegas420

  The fruitage of the holy spirit is love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, mildness, self-control and faith. (I think I'm missing one....)

  Longsuffering.....as in patiently waiting on Jehovah.

  lisa
• 

  JosephMalik

  Lisa,

  Longsuffering is an ability to shrug off what is bad and carry on in spite of it. It is defined like this:

  AV-longsuffering 12, patience 2; 14

  1) patience, endurance, constancy, steadfastness, perseverance
  2) patience, forbearance, longsuffering, slowness in avenging wrongs

  Nowhere does any text say that it means "patiently waiting on Jehovah." Where you to reveal a truth to them they will abuse scripture and abuse you by rejecting such truth and blame you for running ahead. And they will blame it on God as if they had an inside track on such truth and not you and God did not reveal it to them yet. This is a disgusting way of handling such matters.

  We do not accept one fruit and ignore the others like faith. We need all the fruits to maintain faith and to avoid what Paul said in these same verses. Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. So where did the WT get their view? They made it up to keep you quiet which breakes your faith in God and Christ and directs it to them. Now never mind that Paul was saying these things to Galatian Christians that were still keeping the law and he was correcting their thinking. Yes Christians keeping the Law covenant as their means of salvation which is an apostasy by Watchtower standards the last time I checked and a lack of faith in Christ for such Galatians. Yet they were not disfellowhipped were they? This demonstrated to them that they did not have faith. Keeping this law by them was a lack of faith in God's promises to man. I realized over 30 years ago that I was not getting the truth from them since I could identify their false teachings and they wanted no part of it. The meaning of Faith is given like this in Strong's

  AV-faith 239, assurance 1, believe + 1537 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1; 244

  1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
  1a) relating to God
  1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
  1b) relating to Christ
  1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
  1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
  1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
  2) fidelity, faithfulness
  2a) the character of one who can be relied on

  It was not God's way or Christ's way for the Watchtower but their way of the highway.

  Joseph
• 

  JosephMalik

  rus v. from romania,

  Most of it was fine. I could not be sure of some things because of our language differences. And the timing of some things could stand closer investigation. Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. So such things determine what is meant by many verses and confuses reality with prophecy or promises when discussing them. I also checked your H2o post. Some differences there as well and I think you could have done better when discussing men like Russel and Rutherford, their motives and who had truth. We know their fruits But all in all you seem to be on the right track and are questioning such things which is good. It takes time and I will give your views more thought. Thanks

  Joseph
• 

  quietlyleaving

  here is my take on matthew 7:16.

  The context verse 15 says "Be on the watch for the false prophets that come to you in sheep's covering but inside they are ravenous wolves".

  It looks to me that Jesus is recomending an attitude of questioning authority by paying particular attention to the effects of what they produce. They may be very deceiving but they can't hide the cumulative badness of their works. Whereas in contrast the discreet man, in verses 24-27 who listen to Jesus words and practices them does not suffer the losses that accrue to those who don't. So this seems to be a recomendation to think for oneself and gain wisdom as to strategies for living that will result in satisfaction. In other words trust your own instincts as to what gives you satisfaction and fulfillment.
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  Narkissos

  To the op: I think those kinds of "scriptural criteria" to recognise "true believers" either individually or collectively are pretty difficult to use (1) from a modern cultural context with different values, and (2) taking into account the huge differences (and frequent conflicts) between different types of early Christianity and texts.

  For instance, we could easily take issue with the potential "fruits" of Matthean Christianity: did it not radically question traditional family values and loyalties (Mt 8:21f; 10:34ff; 12:46ff; 19:29; 23:9)? Did it not promote a certain indifference to the future, if not a positive (if one dare say) longing for death and martyrdom which sometimes borders on self-hatred (5:29f; 6:24ff; 10:38f; 16:24ff)?

  Or, did not the mutual love of the elect in Johannine Christianity lead to complete rejection of those who did not share their premises (2 John 9--11)?

  Such attitudes we might naturally construe as "bad fruits" but it is quite obvious that the authors didn't.

  And when we consider the possibility that many of the NT anathemas are directed at other types of "Christian" believers who were no less sincere in their own beliefs, which sometimes are also echoed elsewhere in the NT (compare Matthew 7:21-23 with Romans, for instance), the ideal of one valid standard for all "true Christians" seems even more fanciful.