AMNESIAN'S - Amnesia!

by Amazing 15 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Amnesian’s Amnesia: I am cutting to the chase rather than spend time dealing with every nuance of sexism, sarcasm, and misrepresentations in your 12 page post to me. I will deal with it later if you like:

    Your “unedited” post to Mulan on 12/17, just a little over week ago, is very fascinating. I have “bolded” and "Underlined"those points that seem to stand in stark contrast to your current rhetoric directed at me and ex-JW Elders in general:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17545&site=3&page=1.

    Any attempt to edit your post at this time will be a sign of dishonesty. You posted to Mulan: Re: Did Crisis of Conscience damage you? Dec 17, 2001 12:55:

    “Marilyn,

    My sense is that the vast majority of JWs who reach the point of deciding to read CoC have already begun to experience niggling-to-profound doubts and skepticism --- if not full-blown disbelief. It doesn't figure, at least to me, that one who is still a true-believer with faith wholly in tact would even consider reading such a publication. These, imo, are done no harm as they have already started to detect something fishy. That was the case for me, anyway. And once I read CoC, yes I did experience a deep sense of despair even while huge holes started to fill in around the areas I'd begun to have doubts --- the divine appointment and direction of the the gb, for starters.

    Would I have preferred not to know? No. The despair for me was that the book had been around for nearly 20 years --- and I had major doubts for the last 10 --- before I dared check it out.

    Otoh, although I believe that Ray was conscience/duty-bound to write CoC, I don't think that it need be read by all JWs, a great number of whom are probably no better or worse off being Witnesses and would probably despair beyond ability to recover if stripped of "The Truth" by being forced to face the truth. –AMNESIAN”

    You openly state that not all JWs can bear the real truth. You yourself harbored serious “major” doubts for 10 long years! Yet, you somehow manage to deny a man who might be an Elder this same latitude! You make no allowance for those Elders, who themselves hold major doubts, any latitude for also feeling as you yourself felt, and who themselves believe that not all JWs should have their world shaken apart. Many of these Elders have not taken 10 long years to leave the organization as you did. Some have stayed for a variety of short-term purposes, some of which have been to be of service to those trying to effect reform, such as Lee Elder. Whether their efforts prove effective is another matter.

    Your post to Mulan is truly incredible, and exposes your own lack of credibility. The rest of your post to me, moaning all about “powerlessness”, betrays your own misunderstanding of equality; that is: Equality means more than equal treatment, benefits, and opportunities, but equal responsibility. How you judge others is how you will be judged Regardless of gender, race, or other labels, the pointed words of Jesus Christ still holds true for us all, you and me included: “For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you measure out, it shall be measured out to you. - Matt 7:2 – Amazing

    PS: My only edit is to correct the HTML code in quoting your post.

  • JT
    JT

    One of the most interesting things that the Boys at the House have been able to do over all these years is to protect themselves from the anger of the rank and file

    they put unqualified dudes on the front lines- hang elder tags around their neck and tell the rank and file that jah will kill you if you don't listen to them

    and sure enough some of the most talented, educated and brightest women FALL RIGHT IN LINE - like our dear sister here, along with my wife and so many other sisters and bro who don't have positions

    they will submit themselves to some of the biggest jackasses called Elders that you have ever seen

    let me share this one exp with you

    we had a sister in our hall who was a single Dr. she invited one of her fellow Dr. to my book study one night - says she like my style of conducting - tired to make the meetings live despite going thru the Rev book half a dozen times-

    well what happened was I couldn't make it or my assistance- the call was made to another bro house to late to get a sub over to the book study so the only guy left was an man( good man - just hand no biz being a MS other than he was knocking down 35 hours a month)

    he hardly can read, but he was the man in the drivers seat- well as you know WT does allow for sisters to as least read under these circumstances- well being that he was not A SOCIETY MAN all he knew was that WOMEN MUST REMAIN SILENT- so he read and conducted since there were no other males in the book study

    so here this sister is with her friend also a Dr and the meeting is being presided over by "Larry" from the team of Mo, Larry and Curly

    so for one hour and she told me later in fact she called me that night

    how embarrassed she was to have this educated woman with her who found the meeting to be an insult to her intelligence--

    yet she sat there and afterward tried to explain to her friend why none of the qualified women could read instead of this guy.

    the reason is simple she too was a victim of THE SYSTEM

    just think about it- the most educated folks with masters and PhD’s must submit themselves to dudes who clean toilets and cut lawns for questioning AT ANY TIME-

    AND WHY IT IS THE SYSTEM

    the wt has always made sure that when something goes wrong --it is the elders who get hit

    I recall in elders school when I was having my doubts coming to the surface they told us to right down certain things never to mention on DFing forms and

    I recall so well at lunch all the elders who were sitting around talking about HOW SMART THE SOCIETY WAS by protecting themselves and I was saying to myself-- YEA THEY are smart but they are sitting Our Dumb Asses up as the fall guys

    so all these clowns were so happy that they were not giving us anything IN PRINT, but making us write it down by hand ourselves

    THE WT HAS ALWAYS MADE sure that they don't get the blame

    and most jw since they only deal with the elders and perhaps the CO- maybe-- the boys at the house are able to stay behind the Curtain and not be blamed

    so even when jw leave for those who have never served as elders they simply don't know

    I personally find talking to some former jw who have never served much like talking to a NON_JW about your life as a JW THEY SIMPLY DON’T UNDERSTAND and it's not to say anything bad about them- they merely don't have a ref point to work with

    that is why we read of so many bro and sister who marry nonjw and when they are struggling the nonjw will say
    SNAP OUT IT - GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE-

    MUCH Like folks will tell a rape victim- get out of the house, get on with your life, etc

    that is why it is so important for anyone of us who have not walked in the shoes of others to be so careful.

    I personally found very few elders who did not think that they were doing the will of god, much like most jw who would tell a householder on being asked :Are you people out trying to convert folks-99% of all jw would respond by saying O NO we are merely encouraging more bible reading:

    when in fact they just got their A$$ beat by the CO for not having enough bible studies

    as one CO used to say we go out in service to START STUDIES
    yet we tell householders that we are merely encouraging more bible reading

    For anyone who doesn't think that elders are as much a victim of the system as the rest then - they are entitled to their opinion I guess

    When I read post that say I HATE JW OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
    it tells me that this person knows very little about the SYSTEM.

    There are very few who know as much about what goes on behind the scene as elders wives - yet we rarely see an elders wife stand up and say:
    The hell with this religion cause I have seen all the back room politic, backstabbing, etc- NOPE they sit right there believing that this is still the truth and in time god will clean out the old bad elders-

    like I stated it is the system-

    I look at myself a dyed in wool society man- I would DF my mama if she crossed God's org and why

    well when they beat into your head Dathan and Korah stories long and hard enough you believe that stuff after while..

    I have never believed that the Org was wrong and so I stayed, I believed that bad elders( of course wt told me this) would be weeded out in jah due time-- I just needed to be faithful

    and that is the basic mindset that most jw who can write a list of all the bad stuff they see going on in their Congo-

    they believe that god will clean it up-- we just got to stay put

    I recall the widows mite story where the old lady went to the temple each day- despite the Pharisees , scribes and Sadducees and the speaker explained it’s like that in the congo many times

    We just need to keep on attending our sales meeting, selling books on the weekend, (oops I meant attending our meeting and field service activity)

    Bottom line there are only really about 25 men who really run things -the rest serve at the good pleasure of those guys

    I see nothing accomplished by trying to lay the blame on “Elders” when each one of us played what ever role we did all the why thinking this is the will of god-

    I think back at all the sisters who would have nothing to do with a sister whose husband was not an elder or who had kids that had problems and they labeled these persons as Spirutallly weak

    My point is sometimes the women in the hall could treat another sister like a pure OUTCAST – and why well any times their view of this sister was shaped by the value system of wt
    “ Girl she ain’t never out in service”
    “She need to clean then little dirty kids up”

    poor sister did everything in her power that night just to be at the meeting and instead of the sisters say – I’m glad sister single with 3kids made it- THEY DOG HER INSTEAD

    AND WHY cause they were basing their evaluation of this sister on THE SYSTEM

    DID elder hurt folks Hell yea, but how many elders wives knew about the child molestation cases in the hall and called the police-

    So may point is we all did what we did under the crazy idea that it was for god

    That is why many of us look back and ---I KNOW I DO- Can’t believe the way I treated others thinking that somehow this will help them come back to god- or should I say WT

    Just my two

    Plz folks move on with the name calling and blame game
    We all got THE SHAFT one way or the other from the SYSTEM

    JUST MY 2

    james

    ps

    ain't if so nice to be free to express how you feel - even perhaps if others don't agree and you will not be loooked upon as being DISLOYAL TO GOD

    i just love this NET "THANG"

  • Tina
    Tina

    Wrong amazing,
    You missed a big point.There is no equal responsibility unless you ARE equal. Women could only be equally responsible in the org if they shared equality,which they don't. They cannot be equally responsible when no responsibility is allowed them.

    Your arguement may work outside the confines ofjdubdom,but falls flat within it. We uh lived it,remember?

    Problem here is Amnesian hasnt lost any credibility. You have! With your continued excosgetics.

    That was the one big reason I followed your justice series. I found it fascinating to watch you jump thru all kinds of defenses and denials about your participation as an elder. You got spanked bigtime by Amnesian. A little taste of how r/f women have felt eh?
    And lets not mention the continued eau de elder that reeks from your oh-so-loving counsel by scrips lol. Quite patronizing but very expected from you.
    What amnesian said to mulan has nothing to do with the main issue Amnesian wrote about. Lame but nice try.

    Sorry Jt,I usually agree w/ you,not on this one. You're the third poster now,using 'other women/ elders wives' 'you just dont know how it really works' and the victim of victims excuses. You ask not to play the blame game and there it is right in your post!

    If women sat on JC's,made policies,had real authority I could and would hold them equally cupable. Fact is they don't. No matter the couple sisters yakkin in this hall and that hall.

    I think very few men ,who were elders,are going to be able to make a brutally honest assessment here. Of themselves and of acknowledging the power imbalance that so negatively affected so many women(and men). When you're in the drivers seat,it's not possible to get a perspective of the passsengers side.Not an accurate one.
    With all due respect Jt,Tina

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    I'm going to have to agree with JT. I think he expresses the true middle ground on this issue.

    I am uniquely qualified to call this one * as I was a JW man with a beard for about 6 years.

    We all know that a JW man with a beard trumps even womanhood in the race for the bottom of the JW barrel.

    * love me for my winky, Amnesian. Embrace the winky!

  • Tina
    Tina

    ooooooo you lowly bearded winky you!! lololo,hugs Thing here is you could have shaved,and by virtue of certain genitalia,had a very different experience. Shaving our legs and pits just wouldn't have cut it :>

    I think the middle ground is a very safe place to put oneself on this issue,but not a wholley true one. T

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • larc
    larc

    Tina,

    I think that the quote for Amnesian is especially relevant. In it, she states that some Witnesses should be left where they are in their organizational contentment. Yet, in her long point counter point to Amazing she paints this dreadful picture of oppression. These two posts of her's are in direct contradiction.

    In JT's post he was not blaiming; he was describing. He did not blame the sisters, he blamed the system for allowing this behavior to become a norm. He and I discussed this system problem at length on another thread. You will notice near the end of his thread, he requested and end of the blaming, with a realization that it was the SYSTEM that created the behavior at all levels, from low to high, across both genders. Tina, in this situation, I think organizational psychology has more explanitory power than clinical psychology.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Tina, Larc, and JT. First, thanks Larc and JT, you both made good points.

    Second, Tina: You are a bold-faced liar. My Justice Series never discussed any aspect of self-defense, justification, etc. Only on one post did a flare up break out in my second publishing on JWD, because I was accused of holding the same views "now" as though I were still a JW. Yet, the one attacking me failed to realize I was posting about an evnet that was 15 years old. I have been out of the JWs for over 9 years. Rather, I defended an attack on me that was wholly unreasonable and 100% unjustified.

    In my Justice Series I took responsibility for errant views and actions, and where possible, I have apologized to those I harmed. And when possible in the future, I will be able to apologize to yet others that I can communicate with.

    In my Justice postings, I went to extra lengths to make sure up front how I see the 'system' as the problem, and not judge anyone, but also openly recognized the incompetance of the system and the Elders who support it. I jumped through no hoops as you allege. Few ex-JW Elders have ever posted anything to the extent that I have.

    I take responsibility for harm done, even as I make effort to avoid judging those who harmed me. Evidently, we are all having a communication problem, and likely part of the culprit are subtle 'trigger' words and phrases, that, seen in print, may come across much differently when all other aspects of communication are intact ... body language, tone of voice, etc.

    JT makes the case that any Elder's wife could have picked up the phone and called the police in cases of molestation - and many Elder's wives are well aware of these cases. I know specifically of the one I reported, where the Elders talked to their wives and children about a molester, but would not warn the congregation. They, as adults are just as guilty as the Elders, and no amount of rationalization on your part can diminish that ... for if the Elders are guilty, then their wives are with them.

    I begin this post by calling you a liar, and I end by calling you a liar. - Amazing

  • Tina
    Tina

    Amazing
    Dont you dare call me a liar for my personal perceptions of what I read from you!
    Unreasonable? No dear,that's you w/ your excusogetics.
    You set up your series to exonerate yourself,over and over.
    Why did you need a series to admit culpability? The man doth protest too much methinks.
    Everyone I read had a rationalization,minimization,justification for the role played.
    You put that out there,dont expect everyone to,especially women to buy into that. lol
    Oh here we go again,elders wives,puleeazeeeeee. You just reinforced your personal shift the responsibilty,blame game.
    Im sorry that in 9 yrs time you havent gotten to the level of rigorous honesty. deny the gender politics all you want,LIAR. Women WILL tell you differently.
    Your attack of liar just shows how weak your case is here darlin. But that's the beauty of denial.
    ftttttttt,T

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

  • larc
    larc

    Tina,

    If it is your perception, then perhaps you should qualify your words, rather than saying flat out that Amazing is trying to exhonerate himself. Because it is your inference, doesn't make it so. I think your judgement is clouded because of your deep concern over women's issues. Because men express an elder proceeding does not mean he is an enemy of women. Also, I would drop the use of the word "denial" in this context. It adds nothing to the value of the discussion. If I asked you if you were in denial over the wrongs you committed as a Witness, do you think that would lead to a productive conversation?

  • Tina
    Tina

    edited :.

    Vive Bene
    Spesso L'amore
    Di Risata Molto!!!

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