The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Deputy Dog

  The WT and JWs around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence. When in fact they have quite a mystery of their own. One son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures Archangel Michael/Human Jesus.

  On another thread Spike Tassel tried to explain this by saying:

  "It requires spiritual discernment, in my honest opinion. Which is why the Bible alone is NOT enough to reach a true Jw".

  When asked again to explain directly he said:

  "...one Son in one person, just several offices, some heavenly, some earthy. Just like Mr. Ratzinger became Cardinal Ratzinger and then Pope Benedict XVI, so Michael became Jesus and then Jesus Christ."

  Well I don't think that works. Mr. Ratzinger as he calls him, did not start out as an archangel, then by some mysterious (unbiblical) process transform into a man called Cardinal Ratzinger, who later became Pope Benedict XVI. Only to die and be recreated as an angel/human hybred by some other mysterious (unbiblical) process.

  So how can the WT get around the two natures of the Son?
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  Narkissos

  Imo if JWs actually thought what their doctrine implies in a theological way they would naturally come to something quite similar to the "orthodox" understanding of "hypostatic union": the one heavenly person (hupostasis) assuming and "im-personating" (enhypostasy) a non-personal (anhypostatic) human nature. They don't because they do not think about it. But if they did I can't think of any logical impossibility that would prevent them from applying this formal pattern to a "less-than-divine" archangel rather than to the "Logos" as "God the Son".
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  Deputy Dog

  Nark

  They don't because they do not think about it.

  I'm thinking they don't because of the corresponding ransom.
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  Spike Tassel

  The context for DD's current Topic is http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/180442/4/Tell-a-minister-why-the-Bible-alone-is-not-enough-to-reach-jw.

  A key text, as I recall is the NWT Reference Bible's Philippians 2:5-11, which is rendered as 5 Keep this mental attitude [Literally, This be you minding."] in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 wh, although he was existing in God's form, gave no consideration to a seizure [Or, "thing to be seized." Literally, "snatching."], namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave's form and came to be in the likeness of men. 8 More than that, when he found himself in fashion as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient as far as death, yes, death on a torture stake. [See Appendix 5C "Torture Stake" — Greek, σταυρóς (stau·ros´); Latin, crux.] 9 For this very reason also God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave to him the name that is above every [other] name. 10 so that in the name of Jeus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge [Literally, "should confess out."] that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
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  Deputy Dog

  Spike

  What does that passage tell you about the two natures of Jesus?
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  Narkissos

  I'm thinking they don't because of the corresponding ransom.

  That makes sense. Even in WT doctrine Jesus is more than "a man" and more than "Adam".
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  Spike Tassel

  I see one "nature" (a.k.a. "person", "personality") always inferior to Jehovah (e.g. verse 6's "no consideration to a seizure …" and verse 11's "to the glory of God the Father", but several different "offices" (a.k.a "forms", "positions"), as I mentioned in your intial clip quoting me. Thus, verse 6 uses the term "in God's form"; verse 7 discusses an emptying process (a.k.a. "dwarf transformation") to "a slave's form" (a.k.a. "in the likeness of men"; and verse 9 mentions God exalting Jesus "to a superior position" over what verse 10 calls "those in heaven" (a.k.a. "angels and the 144,000"), "those on earth" (a.k.a. living humans), and "those under the ground" (a.k.a. "those in the memorial tombs, the righteous and the unrighteous".
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  reniaa

  hi nark

  On this point I don't agree with you. we may from greek philosophy think son and father can be the same identity but this is not true biblically. Adam might have been adam in nature and then by identity as Adam in himself (the original word adam was for human) and eve might have been adam(human) by nature but eve wasn't Adam by identity which would be ludicrous to say and though she and Adam were 'one' they still had separate identities. thats why there is the one true God and he has a son that is a god/divine but not God in identity the bible also calls the angels divine/god which confirms the Jw intepretation rather than the hypostatic intepretation.

  Psalm 8:5 (Amplified Bible)

  5 Yet You have made him but a little lower than God [or heavenly beings], and You have crowned him with glory and honor.

  Hebrews 2:7 (New International Version)

  7 You made him a little [a] lower than the angels;
  you crowned him with glory and honor

  the word elohim for God used in this context for angels and confirmed in hebrews for angels. Now if this was said of Jesus trinitarians would use it as proof of hypostatic union as they do theos the greek equivalent of elohim but because it is angels they conveniently ignore it.

  Reniaa
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  Narkissos

  I just found an interesting argument in the WT Trinity brochure (published after I left):

  ***

  ONE of the main reasons why Jesus came to earth also has a direct bearing on the Trinity. The Bible states: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.

  Jesus, no more and no less than a perfect human, became a ransom that compensated exactly for what Adam lost—the right to perfect human life on earth. So Jesus could rightly be called "the last Adam" by the apostle Paul, who said in the same context: "Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive." (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45) The perfect human life of Jesus was the "corresponding ransom" required by divine justice—no more, no less. A basic principle even of human justice is that the price paid should fit the wrong committed.

  If Jesus, however, were part of a Godhead, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God’s own Law required. (Exodus 21:23-25; Leviticus 24:19-21) It was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. So the ransom, to be truly in line with God’s justice, had to be strictly an equivalent—a perfect human, "the last Adam." Thus, when God sent Jesus to earth as the ransom, he made Jesus to be what would satisfy justice, not an incarnation, not a god-man, but a perfect man, "lower than angels." (Hebrews 2:9; compare Psalm 8:5, 6.) How could any part of an almighty Godhead—Father, Son, or holy spirit—ever be lower than angels?

  ***

  Leaving aside the whole unscriptural "balance pattern" and the idiocy of "more doesn't work", this really begs for the question: "how could an archangel ever be lower than angels?" Duh.
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  Leolaia

  reniaa....Narkissos didn't say anything about Son having the same "identity" as the Father, nor does that have anything to do with "Greek philosophy" or trinitarianism (the modalist identification of the Son with the Father has much more in common with certain forms of Jewish monotheism). The notion of the hypostatic union is concerned with problem of how Jesus was/is both divine and human in nature.