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I need some good sriptures & reasoning to refute Jesus = Michael Archangel
by androb31 236 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Spike Tassel
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reniaa
hi TD
you are wrong according to the greek scholar I told your reply too he said.
The whole phrase "the voice of an archangel" acts as an "adverbial phrase"
Basically you can "choose" to look at the sentence in several ways
If you choose to look at it answering a question "How did Jesus descend" then the clause "voice of an archangel" is acting like an adverb and makes sense.
And therefore the "with" is expressing "manner" and not "association"
but you can also "choose" to look at it as a description of an entourage....
Jesus + trumpet + archangels voice, etc...
but this seems less likely trying to travel with a voice just doesn't make sense.
Reniaa
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Chalam
Still debating 1 Thessalonians 4:16?!
1 Thessalonians 4:16 (New International Version)
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Still think "with" is incorrect? Click here for the Greek with
Or maybe the definition of "with" is incorrect?
with |wið; wiθ| preposition
1 accompanied by (another person or thing) : a nice steak with a bottle of red wine . • in the same direction as : marine mammals generally swim with the current. • along with (with reference to time) : wisdom comes with age. • in proportion to : the form of the light curve changes with period in a systematic way.
Maybe so cross referencing might help?
Matthew 24:31 (New International Version)
31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
All the best,
Stephen
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Narkissos
As a side note, John 5:28f (general resurrection) is not the same event as 1 Thess & 1 Corinthians... in WT eschatology! :)
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Leolaia
reniaa....Maybe it would be more helpful if you could simply post what the "Greek scholar" wrote you rather than summarizing it in your own words (as by your own admission, you are wholly unfamiliar with Greek), because what you wrote doesn't make much sense at all. That is, unless you spoke with this person verbally, in which case I would have to wonder if this person is an acquaintance (JW?) of yours.
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TD
Hello Reniaa,
The whole phrase "the voice of an archangel" acts as an "adverbial phrase"
I appreciate the repetition, but fully understood the assertion the first time
To reiterate why this assertion is wrong:
Katabaino is a verb of motion. Jesus comes down from heaven to the vicinity of earth. Adverbial modification would therefore be limited to those things which directly affect this change in spatial relationship.
Consider the following English examples:
"Reniaa will descend the mountain with a loud song"
Now while it's entirely possible for the bolded prepositional phrase to act adverbially, it does not perform that grammatical function vis a vis the verb, "Descend" in the example above. Even if it happens to be your voice doing the singing, the phrase does not answer either of the three questions necessary for a prepositional phrase to act adverbially (How, When or Where) It simply describes additional action happening concurrently with your descent.
In contrast, here are some legitimate examples of a prepositional phrase acting adverbially:
"Reniaa will descend the mountain with quick steps"
"Reniaa will descend the mountain on skis"
"Reniaa will descend the mountain in a cablecar"
"Reniaa will descend the mountain aboard a snowmobile"
"Reniaa will descend the mountain before sunset"
"Reniaa will descend the mountain about noon"
"Reniaa will descend the mountain between the two peaks"
The bolded prepositional phrases above all unequivocally modify the verb, "Descend" by answering the adverbial questions of How, When and Where.
The unwillingness of your unnamed Greek scholar to acknowledge that the action named by the main verb limits the scope of any adverbial modification which may subsequently occur raises the legitimate question of whether this is in fact a "Greek scholar" at all or just a common, garden variety self taught JW internet apologist who has gotten in over their head.
You've been presented with a mountain of evidence showing how real Greek scholars of all stripes view this phrase. With no apparent consideration of what their individual theological perspectives might actually be, you claimed they were all biased
You've had several people who actually read ancient Greek, one a real linguist and translator explain to you in excruciating detail the Greek grammar involved. In response you've danced around between various definitions of the English preposition, "With" and tried to teach Greek back to them.
Who's biased here, Reniaa? While interesting, this conversation has been like trying to explain why the hypotenuse of a right triangle with legs of 3 and 4 would have to be 5 to someone who wants to argue over whether 2 and 2 make 4. It would try the patience of Michael himself.
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Narkissos
Maybe I have a broader (or looser) understanding of what an adverbial phrase is than TD's, but I think that qualifying a phrase as adverbial (i.e. modifying the verb without being a circumstantial clause including a verb) has nothing to do with the issue at hand, i.e. whether the subject of the action/event described by the (adverbial) phrase is to be identified with the subject of the sentence or not.
E.g. "Reniaa will descend the mountain in a raging thunderstorm". Imo "in a raging thunderstorm" could be construed as adverbial, whether of manner (more exactly circumstance), place or time depending on how you look at it, but that would not make Reniaa Zeus anyway...
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Spike Tassel
to TD (Post 2002): "Reniaa will descend the mountain with a loud song" answers How, actually.
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OUTLAW
TD & Leolaia..
Your not going to get through to someone like Reniaa..
I can understand the Frustration,of dealing with an Absolute Ass..
But..
All your hard work is not in vain..
Someone like myself would never have the opportunity to have Greek lessons without this debate..
I`m sure there are many lurkers that have enjoyed the benifit of your education,as I have..
..................OUTLAW
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TD
Spike:
"Reniaa will descend the mountain with a loud song" answers How, actually.
Not at all. How would you descend a mountain? Would you sing? ;-)
With a verb of motion, the "How" must of necessity involve movement. Now you might choose to sing or whistle or chew gum or wiggle your ears or juggle oranges while you descend a mountain, but none of those things are actually moving you from point A to point B. The most any of them could be are things you did in addition to descending.
Further, the phrase, "With a loud song" does not tell us who is singing. You might assume the subject of the sentence (Reniaa) is the source of the song, but the English word, "With" is too versatile to demand that understanding. I admit the idea of one person singing loudly while another descends a mountain is waxing poetic, but this conversation revolves around a semi-symbolic Biblical passage anyway.
I don't know why I always have to be the one to remind JWs of what their organization teaches, but the idea of accompanying circumstance has been explicitly acknowledged in JW literature already:
"Another thing that accompanies Christ's descent from heaven is the sound of "God's trumpet." (1 Thess 4:16) The trumpet in this case is not a war signal for assembling troops that they might fight and put the enemy to death. Rather, the blast of "God's trumpet" is a peaceful one for assembling Jehovah's people...." (The Watchtower 6/15/1979 p.25)
As a fairly neutral party, it strikes me as amusing that JW's insist that the language of 1 Thess 4:16 is virtually nonsensical if Christ is not understood as being the archangel himself. This seems to be based largely on the fear that such an admission would lend strength to the Trinity side of a separate debate. However consistently following through with that line of thought would also lend strength to the Trinity side of that separate debate by having Christ and not God blowing God's trumpet.
This leads to actual endorsements of the mainstream view as quoted above. Note that the blast of God's trumpet as an accompanyment to Christ's descent in no way demands that Christ be the one blowing the trumpet.
Narkissos:
It was almost certainly a mistake to discuss Greek grammar using English examples, but due to the circumstances of this thread.....
I have not denied that en phone archaggelou may act adverbially, but I have disputed whether it provides adverbial modification to Katabaino on par with the way a similar construction at Rev 19:17 modifies Krazo. Unless the voice of an archangel is a means of locomotion for (imaginary) spirit creatures I would struggle to see much in the way of semantic relevance. (It's unclear if the two other examples involving substantives came from the unnamed Greek scholar or not.)
If it acts adverbially in a more abstract sense then I think it would follow that its modification would also be of a more abstract nature(?) At any rate, I take your point that this is neither here nor there when it comes to the question of whether the subject referenced by the prepositional phrase is identical with the subject of the sentence or not.