by palmtree67 22 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Spike,
do you understand that these elders would have df'ed anyone who openly disagreed with them? I believe they would have done it. The talks they gave during this time, were warnings.
Holy-spirit directed organization......or not? Do you see my dilemma?
similar happened in Perth, Scotland in the late 70's - younger sisters on roving mics and on the counter (well not literally otherwise I'd prolly still be putting in the hours on service :-)~
it wasn't lack of brothers that prompted this - just a desire on the part of the elders to be a bit more liberal with equal rights
this was put a stop to by the CO
had to be snuffed out.
I am treated by my BOE as if I were DF'd. Just the same, I know I have imperfections to overcome, and it's easier for me to come and go in silence and only comment by my heartfelt singing. I'm virtually 100% in attendance at my congo, whereas I would often sample other congos before while sometimes missing my own meetings. I still say Amen to prayers I can enter into, still clap when I feel it's appropriate, and still raise my hand on congo motions I agree with. And I get what interaction I need right here on JWN.
I do not see the dilemma. If the Elders demand your compliance to something you know is wrong, then "get out of her my people."
Claim: Elders are apponted by Holy Spirit. Fact: Elders are just humans with no better insight into spirituality than you.
WW!
That is a first for me......
But at the same time I have seen that kind of blind obedience in other circumstances, usually it falls under 'imperfect men'. Actually since your former PO isn't attending anymore it would make a great demon possessed story for Dubbie get togethers or example of what happens when men 'block holy spirit"
WW!....... and I came from a KH that 'trained' us girls to take over (for when the persecution came).
Spike I am sorry you aren't being treated well.
You treat me well, Yknot
Hi there Palmtree
The old "organization" book allowed for this kind of scenario. Actually, there was a small amount of time in my old congo that the CO actually brought up the possibility of using sisters. We were told that some of the brothers we were using had to be taken off the mics, lit and mags....
Now, here is what I saw from your situation Palmtree. While it isn't typical for a JW congregation, the reactions are most certainly typical of what happens when the unsuspecting get thrown into privileges, and all the "elderese" that gets communicated.
Two of the sisters who were given assignments: One had an unbelieving husband. She quickly developed terrible stomach problems, lost a ton of weight and barely came to meetings after this. The other sister was a daughter of one of the elders who battled depression and she quickly went downhill as well.
The two other sisters who got assignments were both elders wives and Boy! Did their assignments ever go to their heads! They became haughty and sarcastic.
This is most typical. Privileges will reveal what you are really dealing with, whether that be haughtiness, humility, maturity, or the lack therof. And yea, sisters in these situations are just as bad (or good) as brothers.
I always recall as I look back these days the ones that occasionally turned down privileges.... Just wondering what they saw, or felt.....
Anyway, as others have commented, that isn't a typical situation you observed, specifically. Generally, however, the JW structure and hiearchy does allow for this, and so again, culpability lies at the feet of the teachings and structure of the organization.
I respect the point of view that Spike espouses, insofar as his sympathies lie with JW's. What I think is missing here is simply how the people involved are affected. In this context, what happened could, and does happen in every congregation. Let me explain.....
No one should kid themselves, privileges = stature = respect = self esteem. And the opposite it is true. No privileges = little to no stature = little to no respect = little to no self esteem.
So when some had privileges arbitrarily taken away, given to others who may (probably) didn't want them, while others obviously wanted them so bad that they rubbed it in, well, that is a typical congregation in a nutshell.
The exaulted, the humiliated. They shy, the (too) bold. The power, and the total lack of humanity in exercising it.
Truthfully, the only thing weird Palmtree that you saw was how sisters were used, but if you take out the gender, what you saw is actually quite typical, because people get used, chewed up, and spit out quite often in this congregation.
And we probably wouldn't have the pleasure of Spike's company if this were not the case with him either.
Truthfully, the only thing weird Palmtree that you saw was how sisters were used, but if you take out the gender, what you saw is actually quite typical, because people get used, chewed up, and spit out quite often in this congregation.
Yet another set of scales fall from my eyes........
One day, the elders decided the brothers were not reaching out enough. So they removed the brothers who were not MS's from their duties and assigned sisters to work the literature counter and do magazines. The brothers who were removed were publicly humiliated. One of them begged the elders to not do this to him, they refused. The decision had already been made and would not be reversed. Sisters were also assigned to do the accounts and order literature. That was shocking enough. A couple of weeks later, at the Service Mtg, the brother announced we would break for the second school. And a SISTER WITH A HAT ON took students into the second school. You could've heard a pin drop. People's jaws dropped. This went on for 8 months. People were uncomfortable going to the literature counter to get their magazines. The sisters had to start bringing the mags out to people. when questioned, the elders went on the defensive, they said the CO had approved the arrangement. Later on, an elder I knew personally said that he asked the CO if he had been consulted on this, and he denied it. Someone was lying. Flat out lying. The elders said, and I quote, "The brothers needed to be taught a lesson." and "We're elders, we can do whatever we want." Two of the sisters who were given assignments: One had an unbelieving husband. She quickly developed terrible stomach problems, lost a ton of weight and barely came to meetings after this. The other sister was a daughter of one of the elders who battled depression and she quickly went downhill as well. The two other sisters who got assignments were both elders wives and Boy! Did their assignments ever go to their heads! They became haughty and sarcastic. |
I'm not surprised 2 sisters developed problems - taking the frontline brunt of rejection and controversy but feeling one needs to be faithful in one's assignment, enough to send anyone bonkers - whereas a brother carrying out his assignment even if he does it badly doesn't have to contend with such pressure.
The 2 elders wife would at least have had the support of their husbands. I wonder if their becoming haughty and sarcastic partly reflects and highlights the tone of congregation discontent.
In one congregation it was noticed that the bethelites were always very lethargic and that they'd stopped answering up during the meetings. Well the body of elders decided to discipline the bethelites by removing all their congregation privileges (other bros were given their privileges, mics and such like). Bethel created such a fuss, a branch comittee member chastized the elders and they were told that bethelites are never disciplined in such a public way. All privileges were restored to the bethelites. They also began answering up at the meetings and tried to lose some of their lethargy.
Spike Tassel said:
I am treated by my BOE as if I were DF'd. Just the same, I know I have imperfections to overcome, and it's easier for me to come and go in silence and only comment by my heartfelt singing. I'm virtually 100% in attendance at my congo, whereas I would often sample other congos before while sometimes missing my own meetings. I still say Amen to prayers I can enter into, still clap when I feel it's appropriate, and still raise my hand on congo motions I agree with. And I get what interaction I need right here on JWN.
Spike? This really made me want to give you a huge hug.
Love,
Baba.
