Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article (page 3)

cofty

No Christians wants anyone to go to Hell. That's the point of sharing the Gospel.

Anybody who can worship and adore a deity who invented hell is a moral reprobate.

menrov

I do not understand all the comments as I believe Perry was just sharing his views on how the WBTS misleads its readers regarding this topic.

And, yes, the NWT rendering is pushing a doctrine. Most translations have PERISH but the word can mean DESTROY. It depends on the context.

But regardless the word chosen, the question is: from what does Jesus save. Well, there is not one answer. Jesus saved the Jews from the curse of the Law. Jesus saved the Gentiles from being lost and have no hope on eternal life. It has nothing to do with Armageddon, which is about a war with Kings and Armies.

To show in your daily life (acts and mind) you have faith in Jesus (name, person, position etc) means you hope to be judged positively after you died (judgment is with Jesus) and be granted the promised eternal life.

What happens to those who do not receive a positive judgment is another topic.

It all is about faith. If one does not believe or have faith, then whatever one writes about the bible makes no sense to that person.

WTWizard

Jesus and joke-hova save from nothing. Jesus is nothing more than a scam and a tool to enslave the whole world, and joke-hova wants to save us from having any fun, freedom, or prosperity. In effect, that thing is enslaving the whole human race and, ultimately, will have us all microchipped, bar-coded, and enslaved.

Viviane

I could be wrong it that's it seems to me.

You are.

We're living in 2015 not in the dark ages. the inquisitions have nothing to do with Christians in 2015.

Well, yes, it does. Without the death and blood and slavery and rape and genocide, you don't get Christianity as it exists today. That suffering it part of and core to the Christian belief system.

Viviane

It all is about faith. If one does not believe or have faith, then whatever one writes about the bible makes no sense to that person.

Actually, it's precisely when faith is invoked that all sense goes out the window.

Vidiot

IslandMan - "Jesus saves from the wrath of his father . . . who sent Jesus to die so that he would not have to kill those who believe in Jesus . . . because his father is a compulsive annihilator like that, who must annihilate unless he can sacrifice his son to himself to give himself a reason not to annihilate."

cofty

It all is about faith. If one does not believe or have faith, then whatever one writes about the bible makes no sense to that person. - menrov

The problem is not that I don't understand. My objection is with the very idea of faith.

Why do you believe that faith is desirable or virtuous?

Is faith not a substitute for thinking?

Perry is very clear about what will happen to those who value evidence over faith. According to him they will burn in agony for all eternity. That is what Perry believes Jesus saves people from.

It is a sick and morally debased worldview.

redvip2000

The original post is like a believer in the Easter bunny making fun of a believer in Santa Claus

nicolaou

Perry, imagine the futility of a Hindu, Sikh or Jain trying to convince you of the truthfulness of their scriptures and faith. In fact I don't believe that is something that members of those faiths would do but you get my point.

The disinterest you have toward other belief systems is nothing compared to the apathy or even annoyance you generate amongst former members of a Christian cult.

Get a clue.

Perry

Coded Logic: Good Questions

I was hoping you could clarify a few things for me. I apologise if my questions seem really basic but there's such a wide variety of beliefs within Christianity it's hard to know the position of anyone Christian on any given topic.

You'll find the basis for salvation to be rather consistent among a wide variety of Christians, the blood covenant or New Covenant. Covenant means contract. The contract is a legal instrument used to justify giving life to humans since we are all born dead in Adam. The things that will nullify this contract with God are things like adding to the contract or taking away from it. Catholics add Mary as a co-mediator and add works. This nullifies the contract.

The Watchtower denies the contract altogether for its members. Mormons add their church as a necessary component to the agreement.... etc. Other doctrines are peripheral and it is not critical to get perfect in order to enjoy a contract with God.

In reality, there are only two names on every accepted contract. The name of the believer and the name of Jesus. "there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved. ". (Jesus plus anything, like another mediator or your church will not be accepted; just as your name plus your works or church affiliation will not be accepted for example on your end).

You spoke about John 3:18 and belief. Do you believe that "belief" is the metric via which people are saved or condemned? If so, what constitutes belief?

Jesus was once asked point blank "what was the work of God" Jesus answered "to believe" him. When Jesus said for us to do something in Mt. 26: 27, 28 do we believe him? Or do we believe another who says he wasn't talking to you?. Whom we believe determines if we are condemened or not.... not our works. Our works only serve as an outward indication of our true beliefs; as James puts it...faith without works is dead. But the scripture is also true which states "that by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified"

This is fitting because it was unbelief that sold Adam and Eve and their offspring into slavery to sin and death. Eve CHOSE not to believe God a split second before she sinned and her spirit died instantly and her body eventually.

Likewise, when we are given a new spirit and eternal life NOW, we choose to believe Jesus and his blood atonement just prior to making a confession of faith in Jesus ALONE.

Numerous scriptures support this. One that comes to mind is:

John 5: 24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. -KJV

Notice the present tense. As a side note: "condemned" is a better word choice than "judged" in this scripture. As I pointed out in the opening post, all are judged as Hebrews 9:27 states. But, only unbelievers are condemned.

I recently gave an hour talk with a good bit on this topic here.

Also, do you think being condemned means hell (like the rich man being burned in Jesus parable about Lazarus)? Or does it mean something else?

It is a good bible practice to take the plain sense. Jesus named names of real characters in this account. In teaching parables, Jesus does not name his characters. It was always generic like ... "there was a man" for example.

Jesus spoke a number of times about judgment and separation from God, whether the final destination is "outer darkness" ," hades", "gehenna", or the "lake of fire" at the Great White Throne judgment. A person can make up their own mind as to whether some or all of these are literal or figurative. It makes no real difference, they are all really bad.

Imagine the best of these scenarios of being conscious in cold outer darkness experiencing the absence of all that can be called good for eternity. Jesus said their was no one good but God, him being the personification of GOOD. When we reject Jesus' offer for a pardon of our sins, we are rejecting God and all that can be called good.... heat, sunshine, warmth, love, friendship, wonder, education, family, etc.

By means of Jesus blood, God has empowered man to choose his own destiny instead of not having any choice in the matter. God gives us what we want in the end. He can do no other.

Jesus Saves From What? March 2015 Watchtower Article

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