Hi yourself, Amazing. You inquired/commented thusly:
Have you ever been a JW Elder?
No, as a matter of fact, I haven’t, lacking the requisite Y chromosome and all. That left me with nothing to do but merely provide 25+ years emotional and administrative support to a very prominent man who has been nearly used up by the WTS. I trust, though, you don’t mean to suggest, as does the WTS, that I can know but jack if not ever having worn the fringed mantle.
The men who are appointed by the Society are no different than the average JW Publisher. They are appointed because they are adults, active in the organization at levels which meet Watch Tower rules..
This is no doubt true of many of these men while (back to this later) they are “reaching out,” but certainly not all and maybe not the majority. As regards many of them, my experience (and from who else’s would you expect me to speak?) suggests that the very nature and rules, of which you speak, of this organization that disdains intelligence and education (which certainly qualifies too many of these men!) seduces with the hypnotic allure of power the below-average, insecure, marginally-literate, semi-man who peers in from the fringes of society with virtually no hope of being employed as a leader of any sort in any progressive organization. Only the WTS with so few men and so much work they will only allow men to do will employ these hapless misfits who, once these lay mitts on the coveted prize of P-O-W-E-R, they are anything but the “average JW Publisher.” They have far exceeded their grandest expectations in life and proceed to relish the experience at the expense of those who cannot or will not “meet WT rules.”
As for those who actually do start out “no different [from] the average JW Publisher” and are decent, well-intentioned men, a considerable percentage of them must relinquish those humble and noble anchors if they are going to avoid losing their “privileges”---which, unfortunately, becomes the goal that supercedes all others for many of these men.
Your statement: “…JW Elders are simply believers who are caught up in the same system as every other JW” is interesting. It’s one thing to be “caught up” as one of the blinded ignoranti confined to the general admission seats without a clue other than the lofty claims colorfully displayed in the printed Playbill. Quite another thing when your seats get upgraded to reserved orchestra where you’re afforded a closer view of what’s really occurring on stage. No, these ain’t exactly backstage passes, but they ain’t nosebleeds either, are they? You get quite an eyeful ---and elders’ Playbills have a lot more notes in the margins plus direct contact with those who are in direct contact with the playwright.
Many non-Elder JWs do not believe in the organization, and by your standard, they are all therefore culpable. I think this is far too harsh, and does not allow for gray areas.
Not what I said. Non-elder JWs have no
official power over the lives of others. In what way did I state or imply that they were deputized to inflict the same level of harm on the lives of the flock as those who allow themselves to be appointed and used to judge and, in even their own minds, determine the everlasting fate of their fellows?
And, you nspeak of atrosities and harm…
I need to state here that I know that the words “abuse” and “atrocities” are highly-charged terms that automatically conjure the spectre of sexual molestation and hemorrhagic deaths in today’s environment, but when I used the terms in my post, I was speaking of abuses and atrocities of less spectacular, but no less evil and harmful, kinds.
…as though JWs have a gun to their heads. While serious harm has been done in many cases, it is usually a combination of factors, of which an Elder or Elders may have played a role.
I know well of your posts, Amazing, so I feel confident it is not your conscious intent to be disingenuous here. That said, I have to wonder that you still suffer some measure of self-delusion about what the real situation is for average JWs and your contribution to that situation in your former role among them as an elder if you can honestly suggest that JWs do
not have a gun to their heads. They do. At the orders of HQ---their gun to your head I guess is fair to concede---you and
all elders held guns to the heads of publishers. With Jehovah’s name on the bullets.
What exactly do you think it to be when you swell your chest, muster your full height, mount that platform, take hold of that authoritative podium---which none but an elder or one in training can do---and dictate to us God’s orders as issued from the mouths of the Brooklyn crime bosses? Perhaps you’re claiming a different experience for yourself from the godzillions of elders I’ve known. If so, fine, but ½ or better of the ones I’ve had the misery of knowing---and I mean it when I say my husband is
100% excepted---trampled down whatever proddings of conscience they might have experienced and never flinched in dishing out the spiritual slop exactly from the Society’s cauldrons exactly as they concocted it---no matter how repugnant or outlandish. Men that I knew to be relatively decent stood on platforms with their spiritual shotguns aimed at our heads and hearts. If they disagreed with the swill,
not losing their “privileges” superceded their concerns for
our spiritual nutrition and health.
Certainly, the child molestation issue is among these where many Elders are very culpable. I myself threatened and eventually went to the authorities, and this stand led to my being DA'd. So, I have been there and done that. At the same time, not all Elders have been part of JC cases involving molestation or other kinds of harm. And most of these are not always aware of any kind of molestation case that other Elders are involved in. I only knew of these because as Secretary I maintained the JC files, and had ocassion to know what was in these files.
Every single man who’s ever served on a judicial committee---of any kind--- has inflicted harm on others.
Period.
Congratulations to you and those who took a stand in heinous cases involving child molestation. However, every single man who’s ever served on a judicial committee---of any kind--- has inflicted harm on others.
If you want to plead ignorance of that harm, plead it to Jehovah or whomever you believe in. It’s just my opinion but I strongly suspect there is no man who’s served as a elder for any considerable period of time who doesn’t get to the point of realizing that something very wrong is going on in the organization. Some don’t care, some resign and/or get out, some try to tell themselves they’re performing some greater good for their brothers by staying. Whatever. It’s still terrible harm that one should be ashamed of ever trying to excuse or minimize.
Yes, the Watch Tower religion is clearly wrong, cult-like, and has caused harm to many. But it is a far cry from even more serious groups. And the average JW, whether a Pioneer, an MS, an Elder, or even a CO or DO are victims of the same mind-control as everyone else in the group. I believe that the statement, 'Victims of Victims and Followers of Followers' is very fitting.
I agree. Doesn’t deflect culpability or accountability.
If you were ever a JW, you are just as culpable and guilty as those you ardently condemn. Why? You supported the same system, preached the same message, misled the public at the door, and gave financial suport to religious crooks --- so your judgment comes back on your own head. We are all pups from the same bitch.
I was a JW. Thank God, at least, never an elder, but I am still both culpable and guilty. And
personally responsible.
But, unlike you, I do not hide this truth from myself or offer excuses and justifications.
The difference is that when we come to our senses, we make plans to do something about it. The point of my initial post is how we draw the line, and Lee Elder stated one way that many have drawn the line. I believe he presented fair sentiments in general. - Amazing
And your strenuous defense, if you will, of his sentiments, given his apparent (and seemingly well-earned---I am so extremely grateful for his work as I slowly come to learn of it) stature among ex-JWs, came quite as expected. I have lurked long enough to understand some of the local dynamics. I take no offense, I assure you. But even though I am a fringe presence here, I am grateful that I no longer have a
gun to my head that demands I lower my eyes when confronting the glitterati---in the WTS or here or anywhere. I believe I, too, “presented fair sentiments in general” and, for the first time in too many years, my own opinion carries as much weight with me as anyone’s
I do appreciate, though, both yours and LE’s and others’ divergent opinions on this. I just happen to vehemently disagree.
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Lee, you wrote:
It's folks like you that give us "Watchtower apostates" a bad name ;-) Seriously though, you should consider taking a deep breath and searching out the middle ground. Don't be like those former JWs, that Ray Franz describes as "exchanging one form of extremism for another."
<sigh> Yes, I know you’re right. I regret my wounds are still raw.
There are many fine elders in the WTS at various stages in their spiritual jounrney who act as powerful voices of moderation in their congregations by protecting the flock from radical, stupid
elders who wrecklessly impose their whims on the publishers.
Yes, that’s what set the jackals after my husband, a man of impeccable integrity and conscience and genuine, humble compassion. I know there must be others like him but I’ve grown very pessimistic in this regard.
In my case, the "straw that broke the camels back" was when the body of elders wanted to know the last time that I had disfellowshipped a young person. I have left many good friends and a number of family members behind in the WTS. The mind control and their personal circumstances and beliefs hold them prisoner. I hope and pray for compassionate guards and wardens. Better yet, I hope that moderates take control of the governing body and truly reform the WTS and open all of the prison gates. That may take a very long time to happen, if ever, but one thing is for sure.
If all of the balanced, loving older men resign - things will get worse for those we love and change will never happen.
Amen, my brother. Thanks for your wise words and keep up your good work.
-AMNESIAN
