by darthfader 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
From whom are they taking the lead? Does that mean that the previous leader is not leading anymore? Moses is used as an example when he appointed "chiefs" over different groups of Isrealites. But Moses' appointment process was a visible one (not spiritual) and could be seen by the flock.
How are we to know that the "ones taking the lead" have the right to do so?
Darth Fader
LLOKING BACK AT VERSE 7 OF HEBREWS 13 PUTS THE LIMITS ON THIS OBEDIENCE TO THE EXTENT THAT THE LEADERS ARE TEACHING THE WORDS OF JESUS
Thanks Isaac!
You call verse 7 a limit to their leadership, but it seems to me that they have to be given the lead in the first place as commonly cited (in WT lit.) in Moses example.
Darth Fader...
gotcha, darth...I answered the extent...you wanted to know how they get to that point in the first place...
Here is some research I did on this verse a while ago, I'll share it here:
Ever since I read in Ray's book about how Hebrews was written for the Jews that were having a hard time accepting and adjusting to this new "Way" that Jesus introduced to the world, I've been thinking about this scripture in Hebrews 13:17 it reads:
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. (NASB)
Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you. (NWT)
Now we all know what we've been taught about this verse, in fact it's a favorite of the brothers, we hear it a lot here. But when I read the context of Hebrews chapter 13 in light of what Ray said this book was for, it seemed to me completely out of place, in fact I think it is entirely interpreted wrong by religion and for good reason as we will see.
Hebrews chapter 13 reads like a summation to me. Having heard all that they did in the following chapters of Hebrews, the writer seems to be summing up what makes a 'good person' one agreeable to this new "Way". For instance he says in
Verse 1- Let love of the brethren continue.
Verse 2-Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers...
Verse 3- Remember the prisoners...and all those who are ill treated...
Verse 4- Marriage should be honorable....
Verse 5- Make sure your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have...
Verse 7- Remember those who led you...consider their conduct, imitate their faith.
Verse 9- Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings...
Then the writer talks about Jesus and how he was that ultimate sacrifice for all people, he replaces the burnt sacrifices' (verses 11,12)
He talks about how Jesus in verse 12 "suffered outside the gate" and that we, in verse 13, should "go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach". The final instructions are one to pray for them, and to offer to God the fruit of lips, not to neglect doing good and sharing. Then right in the middle of this you have verse 17 on Obey your leaders...
After just hearing that they were to follow Jesus outside the camp, where we can conclude that there are no "leaders" only Christ to follow, then we have this verse. So I ask, who are these leaders and what does it mean to obey them, it didn't seem to fit in the context of this chapter or in the whole context of the book of Hebrews which is a wonderful letter of how Jesus completely ended things the way they knew it, including having leaders.
So I get out the Greek/English Concordance. The Greek word here for obey means I Persuade. This Greek word is used 52 times in the NT and other renderings include the following: Mt 27:20 persuaded, Mt 27:43 trusts, Mt 28:14 will satisfy, Lk 16:31 be convinced, Acts 5:36 joined, Acts 5: 37 followed, Acts 5:39 were convinced, Acts 12:20 winning over, Acts 13:43 urged, Rom 2:19 are sure, Gal. 5:10 I am confident, Phil. 1:25 I am convinced.
All of these indicate a personal conviction or personal action on the individuals part not on someone else doing these things to them but the other way around. Therefore if we were to put the word persuade in Hebrews 13:17 it would read:
Persuade your leaders and submit to them...
This completely changes the verse to me. Because these people were learning a Superior way of living they, by their conduct and sometimes speech, could persuade those taking the lead over them to follow them "outside the camp" to Jesus. This would be completely opposite of how we understand this verse today. When it says: submit to them the Greek word here is yield. Just think, if we had just been given this new Way of living and wanted to share it with others or persuade others of its valuableness would we not yieldto them, or do so with a mild spirit, letting our conduct show the way, being humble to others including those who were still claiming to be our leaders? Isn't that what awareness teaches, to just BE and let others follow?
Then the verse says "for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account..." This brings up who are they? The Jewish religious leaders at the time who would not let go of their power and authority. Of course they loved the old way, that's why we have the Jewish religion even to this day, they will not submit to this new Way. Therefore they will be accountable for their actions over the people.
Then the verse says "Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you". To me this speaks of how these leaders would react to the conduct of the person trying to persuade them of this new way. Doing so in a mild, yielding spirit would certainly mean that acceptance of this Way by others would be with joy, and not with sighing if it were harsh and forced upon them.
Out of that 52 times this greek word is used two are obey and one is obeying. Let's consider these. The first one is Gal 5:7 it reads in the NWT: You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping on obeying the truth? Now we could easily interchange obeying with any of these other words or phrases and get the same meaning for example: Who hindered you from what you were persuaded to believe. Who hindered you from being convincedof the truth. Who hindered you from what you were confident was the truth?
The next time obey is used James 3:3 which reads in the NT: "If we put bridles in the mouths of horses for them to obey us, we manage also their whole body." Again using these other words or phrases does not change the meaning of the verse. We get the idea that the individual is leading, persuading this horse where he wants it to go.
However, the other place obey is used is of course Heb. 13:17 but when you replace obey with persuade your leaders, win over your leaders, convince your leaders,or any of these other words or phrases it entirely changes the verse! So why would the Church/Religious leaders from 300 ce on not use the proper word here? Because look at what it promotes, an obedience to someone taking the lead over us which is contradictory to what Jesus just set up and laid out for our lives 300 years earlier. How convenient! They had an agenda in 300 ce and the WTO had the same agenda in 1950 when they set out to translate their own Bible.
Now I did google this verse to see what others thought and at best one article said that to "obey our leaders" did not mean just doing everything they tell us to do. But that is still a "Church" view of having leaders at all. Most scholars do not go back to Jesus and the 300 year period before the Church which is a shame because that is where the Awareness is, the true 'jewel' of The Way. So although I appreciated this article on it, it didn't go back far enough.
Something else I feel I should share here is what Ray says in his Afterword in this book about this "camp" mentioned in Hebrews 13:11-14. It's very interesting and it yields itself to what I think is the true meaning of this verse so I will now share that:
What does it mean for us to "go to him outside the camp"? "Outside the camp" is here used as interchangeable with "outside the city." The first mention of a city in Scripture is with regard to Cain and revealed his lack of confidence in God's declaration that Cain's life was not to be taken by other humans. They city thus becomes representative of the quest for security by one's own means. (Gen. 4:13-17.) This same spirit soon surfaced in the post-Flood period, and the urge to build a city synthesized the desire for security by human means, along with the desire for the power and prominence the city offered. (Gen. 11:1-9) The opposite viewpoint is presented as evidence of the faith of men like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that they did not seek the protection of cities but lived in tents because of looking forward "to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God." (Heb. 11:8-16) All this gives deeper meaning to the Christian writer's words that "here we have no lasting city, but we are looking for a city that is to come," a city that is described elsewhere as heavenly, the "Jerusalem above, " the "city of the living God". (Heb. 12:22; 13:14; Gal. 4:25,26; Rev. 21:1-7)
While it is true that the world as a whole, and not merely its great cities, is symbolic of the human quest for security, power and prominence, the context of the words in the letter to the Hebrews would seem to place the focus on a more specific area, the religious one. Jesus was impaled "outside the city gate" and the city was Jerusalem, then the center of worship of God, a worship that under the old covenant could be called "organized worship". Today, worship by God's servants is not, ar at least should not be, centered on one city of this world. Many may rightly claim that they are free from looking to any literal city to give them a religious sense of security, or as a source of power and prominence. But since we do not "go to Him (Christ)" by going outside a literal gate or outside a literal camp, the test is not as to our showing a willingness to look elsewhere than to a literal city for our security. Many of those to whom the letter to the Hebrews was addressed were not living in Jerusalem, and we, like them, are called to go outside the figurative camp.
Today we find religious "establishment" that has developed, composed of many denominations. In a sense they are each individual "camps" and yet they compositely form a large "camp" of an organizationally structured, religious establishment. This is seen in that one generally gains recognition as part of that establishment by membership in one of the denominations composing it. not to be part of that "camp," in one or more of its sectors, often means being viewed as an outsider, no matter how strong one's faith, or how great one's devotion is to God, or how intensely one strives to hold to unity with his Son.
For the Hebrews to whom the exhortation was addressed, Christianity meant a willingness to go "outside the camp," at the cost of former assiciations and of being labeled as an outcast, not entitled to certain privileges of those "in the camp." Exclusion form the synagogue meant a cutting off of all existing social contacts. (John 9:22; 12:42,43; 16:2) But enduring this difficulty and seeming isolation would not isolate them from Christ-it would instead bring them nearer to Christ. Like Abraham and others they could show that they had here "no lasting city" but they looked for a city to come with eternal foundations. (Heb. 13:15) This may mean a lack of recognition and may carry with it the sense of being transitory, "on the move," rather than nicely settled down, but it brings spiritual and eternal benefits that more than compensate and that can fill the heart.
So,(among the other wonderful points he makes) this living "outside the camp" where Jesus is their only leader, would not allow Heb. 13:17, it just wouldn't make sense to me. And when Heb. 13:7 says to remember those "who led you", this could be speaking about these very men Abraham, Moses and those other "so great a cloud of Witnesses". Who were they accountable to? Jehovah himself, not some other leaders. So to those who choose to go outside the camp are accountable to only Jesus not religious leaders.
As a side note the NWT renders Hebrews 13:7 as "Remember those who are taking the lead among you..." and the footnote on that says or "are governors of you." How convenient for this religion considering they are trying to convince us that not Jesus but and 'anointed' class are over us now. The NASB study Bible renders it "Remember those who led you..." The footnote reads: Probably indicates that these exemplary leaders were now dead. This to me could possibly mean those 'great cloud of witnesses' in Heb. 11. Imitate them and how they lived in 'tents' 'outside the camp' with one authority figure , Jehovah. I guess that would leave out the currant anointed GB right!?
I know this was a lot. I had to get it out of my head and stored on my computer. I could be way off on this but my conclusions are that based on the context of the book of Hebrews and the context of Hebrews chapter 13, obey leaders over us is not the way of Jesus. He taught us to have respect for the authorities but to know that we had one father and teacher and that was him. This verse in my opinion could only mean that followers of The Way were to try to convince, or persuade their old religious leaders to follow them outside the camp. However, I welcome imput! This verse has alwasy been a bother to me because of how Church uses it, it doesn't sound or feel like the fruitage of the spirit.
wf
Thanks AWF!
That puts a completely new perspective on those verses.
Darth Fader
AWF,
excellent and honest exegesis. you allow the text to speak. very refreshing. thanks
As a jw, I always wondered how the WTS could say they had no leader but had those who led.
(Matthew 23:10) Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ.
Also, that you were not to automatically follow their lead but watch how their faith turned out.
Notice this convoluted reasoning:
*** w02 3/15 p. 17 par. 15 Christ Leads His Congregation ***Christians are urged: "Remember those who are taking the lead among you, . . . and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith." (Hebrews 13:7) This is not required because elders are leaders. Jesus said: "Your Leader is one, the Christ." (Matthew 23:10) It is the faith of the elders that is to be imitated because they are imitators of our real Leader, Christ. (1 Corinthians 11:1)
*** w07 4/1 p. 28 par. 8 Humbly Submitting to Loving Shepherds ***Notice that Paul invites us to "contemplate," or carefully observe, the outcome of the faithful conduct of the elders and to follow such examples of faith. Furthermore, he counsels us to be obedient and to submit to the direction of these appointed men. Bible scholar R. T. France explains that in the original Greek, the word here translated "be obedient" is not "the normal term for obedience, but literally ‘be persuaded,’ implying a willing acceptance of their leadership." We obey the elders not only because we are directed to do so in God’s Word but also because we are persuaded that they have Kingdom interests and our best interests at heart. We will certainly be happy if we willingly accept their leadership.
*** g77 8/8 p. 27 Women in the Pulpit? ***So baptized males are to take both positions of leadership (elder and ministerial servant) in the congregation.
Of course, I've come a long way in 6 months and not only do I doubt that verse but many in the Bible now. I think it's interesting how as we start to 'awake' certain verses pop out at us as just not fitting a God of love but man. When you learn more , or I should say 'feel' more about who the Creator is, you understand yourself more, and you use that wonderful gift of intuition that was given us to recognize things that just don't fit with unconditional love. The more 'still' we get, the more things will become clear to us.............wf
AWF: I couldnt agree more. I have been trying to look at things from a spiritual perspective instead of a religious one. The minute things become "organized" they cease being spiritual and start becoming religous...
Darth Fader
